I hate russia.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Neubob
And horrible as that may be, those acts are not representative of the ideals and beliefs of every individual Russian. If you dig a little deeper, and maybe speak to some Russians who've lived outside of Russia, I think you'll find that they're not too different from you, and will be more likely to agree than disagree with your views of their leadership.

I think it's not a surprise that Russians who live outside usually disagree with what is/was going on here. I mean - if you enjoyed everything here - then why leave? Everyone has his beliefs and his own life, people have reasons to emigrate, so it goes.

Back in 1983 Soviet people didn't dance in the streets screaming "Wooohooo we shot them down! Killed 250 people! Cool!". I remember that day quite well. People were like "Oh my!..." and for the first time I felt like I am scared of the new war...

I remember Osipovich's interview on TV, he was pale and had his hands trembling.  Later he said he shot 200ml glass of vodka before the interview, it's not easy to realize that you just killed 250 people. He didn't hesitate, he was a fighter pilot, eager to shoot, but later when he understood what he have done...

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Boroda
Why not "Russians killed my nurse"?

Rip, Osipovich identified KAL007 as a "4-engined plane", that's all.

Yes, I'm sure he couldn't see the flashing navigation lights. Those navigation lights are a dead give-a-way that its a secret stealth spy plane.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda
Yes they all come in formations to be shot down by machineguns, 5 guys per meter.

Are you serious or just kidding me?

[/b]
No, Im quite serious. And from the looks of things, I know more about these things than you. Its quite easy to look at the formations involved, the length of frontage of the attack, and the soviet doctrine at the time. Like I said, the units will attack in waves, 3 lines each. Then we take into account the fact that the units involved will not march upright, but rather use a sort of rush, which will break up the units involved.

But you have to remember here that what this part of the discussion is about is my claim that for the defenders, a soviet attack would easily look like a human wave-type attack. And that is merely a function of the number of troops involved in a small frontage.

In 1944 Soviet infantry advanced after the "wave of fire", supported by tanks that crushed what was left of enemy defense lines. LOL human waves in Yassy-Caeshinau operation!

You do understand that "infantry advanced after artillery, supported by tanks" does in no way contradict what I have said about this offensive. Perhaps this is merely a missunderstanding of english from your part?
 

Translation is far from perfect, but generally: what's wrong about that? Stopping retreating infantry, like cold shower. Germans did exactly the same things. Better to leave them to be killed defenseless?

I don't think it was a common practice, look how surprised and disappointed the tank commander is.

Im not sure you realize this or not, but the quote is an example of a blocking detachment-action. The thing you claimed was made up just a few posts ago.

[Dichotomy]

Originally posted by storch
karaya why are you calling him a pathological liar?

let me explain something to us all about the truth since the fall of man.

think of the truth as if it were a mirror.  since the fall of man that perfect mirror was shattered and now everyone has a sliver of that truth.  many find a shard and claim loudly I HAVE THE TRUTH.  in fact all of can only hope to ever have but a small piece of the truth.  absolute truth belongs absolutely to God.  neither you nor I nor boroda have the truth but mere slivers of it.

I just started reading this thread but BRAVO

I've worked with Russians before and my wifes maid of honor emigrated from Russia.

Every time I've dealt with a person of Russian nationality it's been a pleasure.

Communism I don't care for because I don't see it working, haven't seen it work, and think it's fundamentally flawed.  Democracy has it's own issues as well but I think it's a much better system of government.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Boroda
Drop Shot plan. Also see Fleetwood, Charioter, and succeeding plans and documents. Drop Shot plan was disclosed in late-60s. And yes, it projected up to 50% losses for SAC bombers. As well as killing about 10 million Soviet civilians in first two weeks.

Funny that there is almost no information available about this plans on the Net.

The only thing I found on Dropshot:

http://alsos.wlu.edu/information.aspx?id=2310

This book is the U.S. war plan drawn up by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1949, declassified in 1977, for a war initiated by the Soviet Union on January 1, 1957, a date arbitrarily set for planning. The plan called for defending the Western Hemisphere and Western Europe, while a massive atomic and conventional bombing campaign against key targets within the Soviet Union during the first three months of the war destroyed the Soviet Union’s ability to conduct the war. After that was achieved, a massive offensive would be directed at the Soviet Union with the purpose of occupying the entire country. The editor provides an introduction offering historical context and also contributes numerous notes throughout the text, which explain, analyze, and offer additional information, some not known at the time that the plan was written.

On Fleetwood:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj96/fall96/mcfarlnd.html

The Joint Intelligence Staff assumed that war would most probably result from a Soviet invasion of Western Europe and admitted the impossibility of stopping 213 Soviet divisions plus 84 more from satellite nations.10 The Air Force offered the only reasonable option-a relatively cheap atomic offensive, low in American casualties. Secretary Symington stated it most succinctly: "We can't swap the life of one of ours for each soldier of the many millions under arms in the totalitarian states.

These were contingency plans, (plans made in advance) in the event that the Soviets attacked Western Europe. They were not plans to initiate the war.

It is wise to have plans in place to defend oneself against perceived threats. The Pentagon is constantly making new contingency plans and revising old ones. Just because this is a truth it does not mean NATO was planning on destroying the USSR.

[Elfie]

And horrible as that may be, those acts are not representative of the ideals and beliefs of every individual Russian.

I don't think folks are saying that is the case. Your average Russian citizen is pretty much like any American, we just want to live our lives in peace.

I think most of the references to the Russians or USSR is a reference to their government and not the average citizen. In much the same way that folks from other countries say....You Americans were wrong for invading Iraq....I think they are speaking about our government being wrong and not Jane/Joe American.

[Elfie]

What I do not understand is the systematic filing and comparison of attrocities in an effort to prove who was the worst ever. One person gives examples of Russian attrocities on Germans, another retorts with German attrocities on Russians. What's the point? Can anybody here say, with a straight face, that there's a group of innocent people that suffered more than the Russians in WWII? More than the Jews? More than the Germans? More than the Japanese? Is the suffering of any one group more significant, more meaningful than that of any other? And conversely, do any of the attrocities committed by the Russians, Germans, Japanese, or anyone else involved fall short of extreme?

Suffering and death, as well as cruelty, of that magnitude, is horrendous to the maximum degree. All aforementioned parties endured 100% of what a group of humans could or should ever have to endure. All oppressors oppressed to an equal degree. There is no worse thing. Comparing 100,000 raped and murdered against 120,000 raped and murdered in an effort to see who won or lost the game of 'less cruel aggressor' is a futile mockery of everyone who lived, or died there.

Very well said Nuebob, very well said. I think it's ok to discuss the various things that happened in our world's history. It is also human nature to compare the various disasters that have happened whether those disasters are caused by man or by nature. When they are caused by man, many times they are classified as atrocities.

Take for example earthquakes. When a particularly nasty earthquake comes along such as the one in the Pacific recently that cause the tidal waves that killed several hundred thousand people. The news media right away started comparing it to past earthquakes and people all over the world are like....OMIGOSH!

Where this thread is different is one side of the *argument* is showing particular facts about Russia and the old USSR and going . The other side is in complete denial that those things even happened in many instances. It's the denial that is keeping this thread going and going and going like the Energizer Bunny.

*edit* fixed quote tags.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by Elfie
I don't think folks are saying that is the case. Your average Russian citizen is pretty much like any American, we just want to live our lives in peace.

Maybe not, except here, in the parent post:

Originally posted by Hortlund
There you have it.

I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever.

Begging your pardon if I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that this post indicates some ill will towards the individuals, not just the system. Unless, of course, Anarchy is designed only to re-organize government and not wreak general havoc.

[Elfie]

I don't think Hortlund despises the average Russian citizen like he does the Russian government. He can correct me if I am mistaken in this. His accusations appear to be aimed at things the government has done and not what the average citizen has done.

[Neubob]

I hope you are right. I sure have nothing against the Finns. I like your use of the energizer bunny analogy though....

 This post could go on forever, and eventually, we might uncover that the real culprit behind all of the problems of the modern world was some crusty, old, child-beating ***** from 17th century Russia named Tamara Sergeivna. Of course, I would fully expect her name to be immediately exonerated,  along with those of Vladik Lenin and Josik Stalin, and the blame volleyed back.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Elfie
Where this thread is different is one side of the *argument* is showing particular facts about Russia and the old USSR and going . The other side is in complete denial that those things even happened in many instances. It's the denial that is keeping this thread going and going and going like the Energizer Bunny.

This is something that went over Storch's and Dichotomy's heads.    

But, Blame Karaya!  

[Toad]

Originally posted by Elfie
The other side is in complete denial that those things even happened in many instances. It's the denial that is keeping this thread going and going and going like the Energizer Bunny.
 

Exactly.

[Dichotomy]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
This is something that went over Storch's and Dichotomy's heads.    

But, Blame Karaya!  

I wasn't singling you you Karaya I was merely putting my .02 in.  

My apologies if I made you feel that I was.

[Elfie]

I wasn't singling you you Karaya I was merely putting my .02 in.

With inflation it is now $2, please fork over the other $1.98 you tightwad!!

[Vad]

Originally posted by Elfie
I don't think Hortlund despises the average Russian citizen like he does the Russian government. He can correct me if I am mistaken in this. His accusations appear to be aimed at things the government has done and not what the average citizen has done.

I wonder how long would it take for Skuzzy to delete the thread if some Russian posted something like this:

"I hate usa!I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever."

Minute? Few seconds?

Double standards, as usual.

BTW, being Russian I would ashamed of reading such a post not saying to post there.