He 177 A-5 heavy bomber

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by KD303
I think it would be wrong to include the 177 in AH for the simple reason that the 177's engines were so prone to bursting into flames and killing their crews, that an AH super reliable version would have no basis in historical reality.
Of course the same might be said about early German jets - 262 - but at least its engines were sound enough to last an entire mission!

Grief was a highly ironic name for this aircraft, at least for English speakers.

Greif as in Griffin, mythological bird, body of a lion and the head and wings of an eagle.

And by that argument about engine reliability, the B29 should not be in contention (they didn't burn and explode as often, but the B-29 was not a reliable ride either, hence the need to take Iwo Jima as a emergency field for them) and the Me 163 should be removed from game use altogether.   They tended to explode before even getting into the air or on touching down again.  

The He-177's problems were an insistence on a dive bombing ability, and getting tricky with a 2 into 1 engine design for each nacelle.  By the time most of the problems were worked out, resources were diverted to fighter production.  By MW in cases and LW across the board, Germany wasn't able to keep up with Allies production numbers in any area.  

And in relation to game play, at least the He-177 Greif adds a lightly perked bomber which is faster than a Lanc, carries more than a Lanc, higher than a Lanc, and with better defensive guns than a Lanc but does not so go over the top in abilities the way the Superfortress would in relation to other bombers.  

One or two flights of B-29's could take out a town, strat factory, or HQ in one sortie --- that totally throws off the game balance (remember the part where this is a game?).  So: you will never see the B-29 added to the game on that basis alone.  The Greif's speed, ceiling, and bombload may toss it out of contention as well, but it's far more reasonable than the B-29.

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Lusche
But after all, we might better include the Do 217 instead, which was considered to be a kind of "heavy" by the Luftwaffe at that time. Much more reliable and was used from 1941 on, so it would much better fill the Axis bomber gap

Do217 would probably be an easier sell than the He-177, but the more I look at it's performance numbers:  2,000 lbs more than a Ju-88, 40-50 mph faster, 7,000 foot lower ceiling, about the same combat radius, maybe a little better in defensive guns.  Similar capabilities, nothing really distinctive.

I'd rather see the Ju-88P built on a JU-88A conversion option or JU-88S or even Ju-188 added along side the addition of a He-177 instead.   The He-177 is just different enough from Ju-88/Ju-188/Do17/Do217 line to be more interesting and diverse.

[Movie]

Originally posted by 68ROX
We NEED the B-29 here...but it DEFINITELY needs to be perked...


68ROX

omg YES:aok

[Wes14]

Originally posted by Movie
just add this plane and i rather be a sitting duck



brand new too rolling off the factory of Airbus

how can you be a sitting duck in that??? It can basically outrun everything we have in AH!

and i would like to see an axis "heavy" bomber

[Lusche]

Originally posted by tedrbr
Do217 would probably be an easier sell than the He-177, but the more I look at it's performance numbers:  2,000 lbs more than a Ju-88, 40-50 mph faster, 7,000 foot lower ceiling, about the same combat radius, maybe a little better in defensive guns.  Similar capabilities, nothing really distinctive.

A medium bomber with 50(!) mph more speed while carrying 2000 lbs more (with much better defensive guns) is not what I would exactly call "Similar capabilities, nothing really distinctive."

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Lusche
A medium bomber with 50(!) mph more speed while carrying 2000 lbs more (with much better defensive guns) is not what I would exactly call "Similar capabilities, nothing really distinctive."

All things being relative.  The He-177 heavy bomber (which Axis totally lacks in game for Germans, Italians, and...well...the  Japanese never did have)  speeds were similar to Do217, could carry another 5,000 to 7,000 lbs of bombs than the Do217 could (7 to 9K more than the JU-88), a much higher ceiling, but a little less of a combat radius.  

I'd like the He-177, Do-217, Ju-88P, and maybe the Ju-88S or JU-188...... but we'll never see that lineup in this game.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by tedrbr
but we'll never see that lineup in this game.

Just like we'd never see a 75mm cannoned B-25?

Bronk

[KD303]

Originally posted by Lusche
The name was Greif, not Grief

To say that the the 262's engines "at least (...) were sound enough to last an entire mission" implies that the 177's never did that - which is not true.

The 177 had huge problems, especially in the early versions. Many of them were redeemed in the later versions, though the 177 was still far from being called a very reliable plane.
In 1944, most problems of 177 equipped units resulted from a serious lack of special tools & spare parts, as well as quite inexperienced crews (the 177 was a much more difficult plane to fly and to maintain, unlike the Lancaster or B17).
But if every sortie was to end with an engine fire, the plane could hardly have been used operationally.


But after all, we might better include the Do 217 instead, which was considered to be a kind of "heavy" by the Luftwaffe at that time. Much more reliable and was used from 1941 on, so it would much better fill the Axis bomber gap

Typo!

I wasn't meaning to imply that they could never survive a mission, I was suggesting (perhaps a little heavy handedly, for the more pedantic) that they were not reliable enough to be fairly represented by a 100% reliable AH model. Of course, no aircraft was really 100% reliable but the He177 would be pushing it too far. My comparison with 262s referred more to the fact that a pilot could expect his 262 to last a mission whereas a 177 crew could not.

[Movie]

Originally posted by Wes14
how can you be a sitting duck in that??? It can basically outrun everything we have in AH!

and i would like to see an axis "heavy" bomber

hmm prolly would be good fight for a jet

[Movie]

Originally posted by Mr No Name
i bet they'll fit 800 mexicans and 3 dozen chickens on that thing!

it fits like about 150-200 people

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Bronk
Just like we'd never see a 75mm cannoned B-25?

Bronk

First, I don't ever remember making the claim that we would not get a 75mm armed B-25.  I half expected that since there have been many calls for tater gun armed birds for American, Russian, and German planes for a long time.  What I did often state was that many members over estimate the abilities of a 75mm tossing HE rounds with only with a historic rate of fire of 4 to 5 rounds per minute, a 21 round ammo rack, and from a fairly large plane doing, at most, 220 to 250mph on the deck.  


Second, the little snipes and snide remarks from you and Rino are wasted on me.  I grew up on unmoderated Usenet boards famous for flame wars, like "reeky.moto" (rec.motorcycles) and among the other members of the Dietizens of Doom, and from Compuserve and Prodigy boards before even  that.  You're posts are generally quaint and sophomoric, especially those when you accuse others of childishness. They are also uninspired and rather dull, but at least they are always very short.

A quick search for your postings also shows me something else:  you never (or at least nearly never) post anything qualitative, quantitative, or of any true substance in the forums.  You simple vent your spleen and denigrate others when you see a chance.  The only thing that can be considered a "positive" in any of your posts is the way you genuflect toward anything from HTC as if supplicating yourself to them will curry favor with the HTC Gawds.  I've never really understood that attitude in a game forum.  

If you feel you must continue on this course, feel free.  Maybe anger management didn't take or the medicine cabinet is understocked.  I don't know and frankly could care less.  I generally don't reply to these kinds of remarks, since they just don't get past my own long ago developed personal filters from much more open venues than this one, but it's starting to border on an unhealthy obsessiveness.  Someone should be worried about you..... just not me.

[Bronk]

For someone who doesn't care, why the need to search my posts?

Ohh and just so ya know. I've done more to explain how the collision model works than you begging for the A-26.

Not to mention taking people to the da so they can film and see for themselves.

Thats just one of the things I've done. So your chastising is waisted on me.
Try again.



Bronk

[Movie]

the fact remains we need heavy axis bombers... or add the Piaggio P108


 Model Piaggio P 108
 
Engine Piaggio P.IIX RC 35
 
Total HP hp. 1350 x 4
 
Wing Span m. 32.00
 
Length m. 22.92
 
Height m. 7.70
 
Wing area m2. 135.34
 
Weight kg. 17,320
 
Max Weight kg. 29,885
 
Speed km/h 420 a 3,900 m
 
Range km. 3,520
 
Max Elevation m 8,050
 
Armament 6 x 12,7 mm + 1 x 12,7 mm + 2 x 7.7 mm
 
Crew 6
 
Payload Kg. 3,500

[Krusty]

Number in service? I'm guessing single digits...

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Krusty
Number in service? I'm guessing single digits...

Data on the Piaggio P108 is hard to come by.  Some accounts have it faster with more ord than comparable  B-17 (EW/MW) and very low production numbers = 163 built, for all three B series (not including a few A and C models), by one account in another online forum on a Piaggio P108 discussion at ww2aircraft.net.
ipmsstockholm.org has similar figures.  

A search on the Piaggio P108 comes up with more on plastic models of it than the aircraft itself.   The remote nacelle turrets were probably not that effective.