Author Topic: Jug is Handi-capped  (Read 7110 times)

Offline Boxboy

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Jug is Handi-capped
« Reply #105 on: August 12, 2007, 12:36:17 PM »
WOW what a lack of history knowledge by some of you I am astounded.

300 Spartans (actually around 1500 men at the start but 1200 left the battle for Athens).  This action is taught in most military schools in the world to demonstrate the tactical avantage of TERRAIN vs numbers.

The same as we use alt vs a better turning plane to gain advantage.

To argue plane vs plane without all the "other" factors is just silly, facts are that HTC does the best research it can for the plane models and IMHO do a pretty good job of it.

No WWII pilot experienced anywhere NEAR the combat we do in the MA everyday and in most cases it was a boring albit harrowing experience to fly sorties.
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Re: Re: Jug is Handi-capped
« Reply #106 on: August 12, 2007, 12:44:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Fw190: around 20,000 produced.
Il-2: around 36,000 produced
B-24: around 19-20,000 produced
P-51: 15,875 (includes 555 of the H model)
P-40: 16,800

Yak Variants: 32,051, plus a further 4635 after the war, total of 36,686.



And we have two.

Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #107 on: August 12, 2007, 04:50:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boxboy
WOW what a lack of history knowledge by some of you I am astounded.

300 Spartans (actually around 1500 men at the start but 1200 left the battle for Athens).  This action is taught in most military schools in the world to demonstrate the tactical avantage of TERRAIN vs numbers.

The same as we use alt vs a better turning plane to gain advantage.

To argue plane vs plane without all the "other" factors is just silly, facts are that HTC does the best research it can for the plane models and IMHO do a pretty good job of it.

No WWII pilot experienced anywhere NEAR the combat we do in the MA everyday and in most cases it was a boring albit harrowing experience to fly sorties.


All that's true but I assume most people like to know how planes fight Co-alt, co-E and nothing more or less. Of course planes do have different chances with each other depending on altitude...
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Offline Boxboy

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« Reply #108 on: August 12, 2007, 06:46:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SgtPappy
All that's true but I assume most people like to know how planes fight Co-alt, co-E and nothing more or less. Of course planes do have different chances with each other depending on altitude...


Probably correct but even with those conditions we have different results for different alts.  

It has also been my experience in AH to never have had or VERY rarely a co alt co E fight.
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Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #109 on: August 12, 2007, 07:21:40 PM »
very true indeed.

Often though, it really bothers me to not know how fighters perform against each other at co-alt, co-E... :lol it's just one of those annoying questions.
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #110 on: August 12, 2007, 10:08:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boxboy
WOW what a lack of history knowledge by some of you I am astounded.

300 Spartans (actually around 1500 men at the start but 1200 left the battle for Athens).  This action is taught in most military schools in the world to demonstrate the tactical avantage of TERRAIN vs numbers.

The same as we use alt vs a better turning plane to gain advantage.

To argue plane vs plane without all the "other" factors is just silly, facts are that HTC does the best research it can for the plane models and IMHO do a pretty good job of it.

No WWII pilot experienced anywhere NEAR the combat we do in the MA everyday and in most cases it was a boring albit harrowing experience to fly sorties.
Huh?   All that needs to be said is that Xerxes even though superior in numbers, chose a "frontal assault".   His troops WERE decimated, because the Spartans "made the Persians, fight the Spartans style of fight."
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Offline Boxboy

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« Reply #111 on: August 12, 2007, 11:10:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Huh?   All that needs to be said is that Xerxes even though superior in numbers, chose a "frontal assault".   His troops WERE decimated, because the Spartans "made the Persians, fight the Spartans style of fight."


Ya know Mash you really ought to read up on something before you open your mouth and show how really ignorant you are.

The Persians fought the only way they could because of TERRAIN until a spy showed them how to flank the Spartans, at which time the Spartans were wiped out to a man.

All needs be said by you has been,  go read some history there will be quiz's next week
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Offline Squire

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« Reply #112 on: August 12, 2007, 11:13:43 PM »
Chose a frontal assault as opposed to what? The pass at Thermopylae was closed by a phalanx of hoplite infantry.

They attacked it because there was no other way to go. You make it sound like they could have just flanked them. The Persians were not stupid.

It was a pass, not open ground.  Your choices are: #1 frontal attack, or #2 embark your army and leave, with a huge delay in your invasion. Large armies did not move very quickly in those days. You couldnt just load the 250,000 of them into C-5s and fly off somewhere else.

Xerxes gambled that a frontal attack with overwhelming #s would eventually work (and it might have had the Greek infantry been of poorer quality, or had less resolve), but it failed. In retrospect it was a reasonable tactic to attempt to break through, you never know what success might be gained untill you make a foray.

As it was they eventually found a hidden trail the led around them (after a Greek traitor showed them), after 3 days of combat.  

The Persians chose a poor spot to embark from, they should have planned for  an initial invasion point where their #s would be telling, and they had room to  manuever. History is always 20/20 in hindsight as they say...

Next lets talk about the Spitfire, and its relationship to Gettysburg! :rofl
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Offline Golfer

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« Reply #113 on: August 13, 2007, 04:25:59 AM »
The Spitfire at Gettysburg had far less an impact when compared to the Wilderness Campaign and the JU-87 Stuka.  If the south had more Stukas things could have turned out much differently for Grant...

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #114 on: August 13, 2007, 04:44:27 AM »
I never said anything of the sort, just that Xerxes attacked via the "frontal assault".   Some of you guys are too touchy.  

As for me being "ignorant" to what I posted, prove me wrong.   What I posted...happened.
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #115 on: August 13, 2007, 05:49:18 AM »
Looking his stats his kill ratio is well below 1 and flying almost entirely different versions of P47s.

I think he should rather see a trainer and really try other planes too.

P47 is a very challenging plane to fight in and requires certain discipline that comes usually with experience. It would be enlightening for him to fly e.g. a Spit5 and get owned by a vet in a P47 in a co-alt duel. Maybe that would give a good perspective of what is the meaning of experience.

I have flown P47 every now and then and I have developed a healthy respect for P47 pilots who manage to be very effective in it.

:)

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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #116 on: August 13, 2007, 05:59:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
All that needs to be said is that Xerxes even though superior in numbers, chose a "frontal assault".
 What other method could Xerxes have chosen?

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #117 on: August 13, 2007, 07:24:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge

P47 is a very challenging plane to fight in and requires certain discipline that comes usually with experience. It would be enlightening for him to fly e.g. a Spit5 and get owned by a vet in a P47 in a co-alt duel. Maybe that would give a good perspective of what is the meaning of experience.

I have flown P47 every now and then and I have developed a healthy respect for P47 pilots who manage to be very effective in it.

:)

-C+


For all who be used to fly a FW190A8 vs Spits, Temps, La´s and Yaks, the P47 (specialy the D-11) feel more like a superclimbing turnfighter.

Of course its not the best close-in dogfighter, but its more easy to disengage than with a 190A8 and the initial turn down to stall speed with full flaps is very good. Also the B&Z ability is much better. The handling with flaps is also very good.
There are only a few planes that own the P47(no advantage left) and this planes are not axis planes.

Btw, Uriel is absolutly right, when he say the P47 was very good, so it is in AH.  Unfortunately he seems to forget that "very good" dont mean, "best sustained turn fighter". In RL very good rather mean "good range, good armned, good manouverable and fast and though enough to bring the pilot home".


Greetings,

Knegel
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 07:27:03 AM by Knegel »

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #118 on: August 13, 2007, 08:07:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
What other method could Xerxes have chosen?
Why are we debating this FACT?   I never said he SHOULD HAVE chosen another route.   He was victim to the tactics of the day, until he was helped by the traitor.
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #119 on: August 13, 2007, 09:02:19 AM »
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."