Author Topic: Government funding of the arts: For or against?  (Read 5333 times)

Offline JB88

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2007, 08:36:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
You don't, for instance, want welfare programs supporting illegal immigrants, do you?


are they artistic illegal immigrants?

:confused:

of course not.

again, i am opposed to individual grants at the federal level.  

i am not arguing for artists i am arguing for the arts.

so its defacto.  and its not even the crowd that i hang out with...but like a freaky cousin, ill fight for them to keep the family together.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 08:40:55 AM by JB88 »
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Offline john9001

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #106 on: August 19, 2007, 08:42:27 AM »
""In the late 1980s, Congress passed controversial prohibitions on the funding of "obscene" art, triggering thunderous protests from both artists and civil libertarians. At the height of the controversy, then-President George Bush fired the NEA chairman John Frohnmayer.(1)

This phase of the controversy centered on obscenity, which is a recognized exception to First Amendment protection. In 1989 Congress used language from the Miller v. California decision in an amendment to the annual NEA appropriations act:

none of the funds . . . may be used to promote, disseminate, or produce materials which . . . may be considered obscene, including but not limited to, depictions of sadomasochism, homoeroticism, the sexual exploitation of children, or individuals engaged in sex acts and which, when taken as a whole, do not have serious literary artistic, political, or scientific value. (2)
NEA required grant recipients to certify that they would not use grant funds "to promote, disseminate, or produce [obscene] materials." (3)
Many artists and arts organizations, including the late Joseph Papp, producer of the New York Shakespeare Festival and A Chorus Line (4), refused to accept NEA grants to protest the prohibitions on the content of their art. Some filed lawsuits challenging these restrictions on their exercise of free speech. Federal courts sided with the artists, striking down as unconstitutional the certification required by NEA. In a lawsuit brought against NEA by the Bella Lewitsky Dance Foundation, the court held that the requirement was unconstitutionally vague and that it violated the First Amendment protection of free speech. ""

i think you were saying that if the govt does not fund "artists" our civilization would fall into the "dark ages".

Offline JB88

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2007, 08:44:20 AM »
i wonder if john reads or if he just latches on to keywords.

me: "not for individual grants.

me: "not fighting for artists...fighting for the arts. "

anywho...



...and it goes without saying that all of those attrocious statues in the rotunda that will eventually need restorations that will cost zillions should just be chopped up and condensed into the concrete that will form the big giant cube that all will agree as a fitting and uncontroversial tribute to ronald reagan after they have down the museum of modern art to build his memorial.

can't wait.

:aok
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 08:46:24 AM by JB88 »
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Offline culero

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2007, 08:45:41 AM »
Lemme try again. Are you for any and all socialism?

Again, this point isn't about the arts. Its about the concept in general of what power the government should have to tax and spend.

Again, I do agree with you about the arts. But I also recognize that the larger question is a legitimate one. Its a tricky thing to find balance in anything. You obviously agree that public sector spending (and taxation) is way out of whack. If we're ever going to fix it, we need to be prepared to discuss everything reasonably.
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storch

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #109 on: August 19, 2007, 08:55:08 AM »
I have to agree with funding for the arts however we need to keep the off the page leftists complete out of the decision making process.  a urine filled glass decanter with a cruxifix in it is not art and the thats the kind of art the national endowment for the arts likes to fund.  I'm against funding that kind of "art".  the cheekboness on the board of the NDA need to taken out back for a nice stalinist style shooting party.
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Offline JB88

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2007, 09:08:59 AM »
next person brings up pisschrist...  thats over people...  its been over for a loooooong time.  it drove the deathnail into the NEA and nobody would argue that it was in really bad taste.

Quote
Originally posted by culero
Lemme try again. Are you for any and all socialism?

Again, this point isn't about the arts. Its about the concept in general of what power the government should have to tax and spend.

Again, I do agree with you about the arts. But I also recognize that the larger question is a legitimate one. Its a tricky thing to find balance in anything. You obviously agree that public sector spending (and taxation) is way out of whack. If we're ever going to fix it, we need to be prepared to discuss everything reasonably.


no.  i am not for socialism.  but i am not opposed to the collective allotment by a people in a society to provide for a better common environment.  better roads, national parks (yes i know, not very libertarian on the parks but hey...i know people in real estate, lets not kid ourselves there either) national defense (which is BLOATED TO HELL right now and is running in the trillions for this war)

i dislike big government as much as anyone who has posted here, but i am also realistic enough to understand that there are needs that are sometimes better met by the committee that is the government.  big government are also the ones who let the FDA make sure that our food is safe.  look how well laxness does for china...

my point is that government has to purchase across the board.  its purpose is to make our nation function well and stand out amongst other nations.  

the works that people keep bringing up?  they only serve to put fear and predjudice in peoples hearts.  most grants and programs are benign.  so much so in fact that its exiting to some of them when a textile show gets funded.  trust me, i know these people.

what it does do is serve to preserve a rich heritage of american art, from symphony to original jazz to dance which has a hard time existing without pasties and lapdancing.

it once went to restore the original "all quiet on the western front" so that it can be preserved and witnessed for generations.  these things arent arbitrary and they arent people pooping on things.  its just people who would rather point a finger and try to find any reason to destroy that which they cannot or will not understand.  i believe that it comes from a place of smallness and from a place of fear to allow oneself to be so quick to label and so long to let go.

i believe that a nation can be measured by how it crafts its culture.

if anything, i think that the federal government with its meager acknowledgement of the grand tradition of the arts and with its unwaivering flood of open checks to pork and special interests that is making a big work made out of poop.

and i just think that its damned foolish for anyone to even pretend that the government is even funding the arts because for all intents and purposes it is not...not really...and unlike haliburton or lockheed...no artists are getting rich off of your dime.
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Offline lazs2

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2007, 09:11:10 AM »
I do think that a few here are marginal "artists" and entertainers who are the real people who "fear"

The real fear is that they won't get their handout.    the real fear is facing up to a lack of talent.

the question of need is.... well... do we need art?   Yes we do.   we create it.  we need love too.. should the government sponsor love?   We need freedom..  We need a lot of things.. what we need we make happen.

The question then is... would there be no art without the government... the answer is so simple that it hardly needs to be asked except with the marginal artists and frightened wanna be's who are for funding the arts with other peoples money.

In the end.. that is what it is.. socialism.. a small evil for certain when compared to other socialist extortion but... made even worse because of the idea... the perversion of something so intwined with peoples souls as art.

And.. far from being more or less angry about it... why not just stop it?  the very fact that it is relatively small makes it easier to stop funding.   We are not  "angry" any more than any other waste of government money... we simply say "nay" to more of our money being extorted by the government.

sure... some crooks and some talentless people will stop getting  a free ride from their fellows but...  art will live.

lazs

Offline JB88

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2007, 09:14:40 AM »
soooo...a statue at a courthouse is socialism lasz?

how about the architecture?

maybe we should put all government offices in travel trailers.

that way, nobody has to worry about people getting handouts.


:rolleyes:


(forget the parking lots too..we'll just roll the cars up in the yard.  no problemo.)
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Offline lazs2

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #113 on: August 19, 2007, 09:17:11 AM »
and....

What is "commercial art"?

It is not real art?  

is it that someone building a custom car is commercial art and someone dunking a cross in urine is "real art"?

How is "real art" defined?  is it defined by the fact that no one wants it?

What will people think of the hirohito mercury 50 years from now compared to the jar of urine?

Would photographers stop if they didn't get their handout?   Is one view of the world more important than any other so that its message has to be sponsored.

The whole discussion is beyond ironic in the first place.    What real artist would want government involved in his work?

lazs

Offline JB88

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #114 on: August 19, 2007, 09:21:49 AM »
dunno.  i am not one of them.

i am not "for" individual grants.

i keep saying this.

and the whole pisschrist thing was taken care of years ago.  its over.  i keep saying that too but none of you seem to be able to digest it.

show me someone who is getting rich on nea grants lasz.  show me one.
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Offline lazs2

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #115 on: August 19, 2007, 09:34:42 AM »
Ok... so now they fund "real art"..  they made a mistake on the urine thing?

Why is it a mistake?    are you saying that it was not real art and did not deserve to be funded but say... NPR does?

Who decides?

It matters not if individuals are funded... if there is funding the marginal and talentless artists think they can get a piece of it.. of course you would be for it... more funded.. more opportunity for you and less chance you have to rely on your own talent and sweat.

You prove this to me by your support for government intervention in art.  No real artist would want such a thing.

lazs

Offline JB88

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #116 on: August 19, 2007, 09:37:56 AM »
you obviously havent read a thing that ive written so i'll wait until you have...go ahead...you can do it.  its not that hard.

start from the beginning where i state very clearly my thinking on the matter.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 10:13:24 AM by JB88 »
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Offline lazs2

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #117 on: August 19, 2007, 09:56:16 AM »
and you obviously are not being honest with yourself.

There is no reason for government to meddle in art.   No real artist would want such a thing.

There is a very good reason for not taking money from everyone against their will to give to someone else.

you need to read my posts carefully and try to comprehend..  I know it is a shock to hear things you don't hear in your cliques but.. there you have it...

Some people just don't like socialism and don't think what you think is important is worth funding or that ...  it is even a good idea.

again...slowly... No    real    artist    would      want    government    involved.

lazs

Offline JB88

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #118 on: August 19, 2007, 09:58:57 AM »
are you a real artist lasz?
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Offline moot

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Government funding of the arts: For or against?
« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2007, 10:13:55 AM »
JB88 you know there's no end to the elasticity (pardon my french) of the limits of "Art".  Art is just engineering unrestrained from reality (think that one thru, trust me :)).
So anyone could be qualified as an artist.  Lazs definitely isn't in any blurry middle ground: he builds customs.  
To really bring this debate out from theory and principles into concrete reality, you would have to find some artistic criterias worth govt subsidies (and the like) that aren't just abstractions.  Like XYZ (as precisely and concisely defined as any other no-nonsense legislature) sort of art has ABC effects on MNO parts of the public.  MNO target audience is worth TUV funds because it fits into the rest of the budget big picture [...]
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