AH religious Scholars

[Tachus]

Originally posted by Bolo6
First off I will venture to say that 'googling' violent koran quotes will return anything but reliable information. What I was looking for was for someone to get off of the computer and actually read a verse. Believing most of these web sites is like taking muppet banter seriously.

Redtop you have every right to feel the way that you do, but the attitude reflected inyou post reveals exactly why this country is in the predicament it is in. The people that run this country feel very much the same way. You don't feel the need to understand anyone but the ones who look the same as you and think the same as you and pray to the same God. By the way Allah and the Christian God are considered to be one and the same. FYI the same entity is called Yahweh by the Jews.

The fact that you don't care "two cents" to give an effort to get along with those that are different from you speaks volumes about you character and your values. These same values you pass on to your kids grandkids neices and nephews that you mentioned, which from your last post seems to be intolerance, and ignorance. The ignorance stemming from the fact that you beleive that all muslims are out to kill you. A good way to find out is, and here is a novel idea, try talking to one. Most muslims want the same things you want. To be able to provide for their families. This conflict didn't start with 9/11 and it won't end by killing all the muslims or the terrorists. It will only end when the cycle of ignorance and intolerance is broken on both sides.

You mention that you were a Christian man. But when did Christ teach to hate those that may hate you or even want to kill you? If Christ were here on this earth today, what would he say of your position? Do you beleive it is in line with the teachings western religion has attributed to him?

Just a couple of important things.

First, and most importantly, as it relates to this post. Your statement

"By the way Allah and the Christian God are considered to be one and the same. FYI the same entity is called Yahweh by the Jews."

Is absolutely false. What Muslims might think on this matter, I cannot say, I have a pretty good idea about what Jews would says, but am not certain. However, I can tell you will absolute certainty that Christians reject that notion completely. (And I would be fairly certain Jews would as well)

Perhaps, Muslims believe we have the same God, that really has no bearing on it. I can say you and I have the same father, it doesn't mean it's true. I can only be the son of your father in one of two ways. I was born a natural son, or I was adopted? Just saying it, or wanting it to be true doesn't make it so. The same is true of God. He only has one begotten Son, Jesus, all the other sons (and daughters) he has, are adopted. The Bible clearly teaches, that no person can "be adopted" except through faith and Jesus. (For example, Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father, but through Me." Unless a Muslim confess Jesus as the Christ and their Lord (which would make the a Christian) then according to the Bible, they are not "sons" of God)

So Muslims and Christians, do not have the same Father. (There is about another 6 pages of examples I could present, but this should suffice.)


Secondly your argument about sources coming from the internet is not valid. It is true that if a source is to be used in an argument, that source should be reliable. However, your premise, that "Any" source from the internet is NOT a reliable source is what's called a "Hasty Generalization", and as such your premise is insufficient, to support your claim. In fact the internet can be seen as a medium, much in the same way "books" are. So one could say, it's not the Internet, or Books, that are the "Source" it is the author of the material, that is the source. So whether someone reads the Koran, on the internet, from a book, or listens to it on their IPod, makes no difference. If it is indeed the Koran, the source is the Koran, not the medium by which it was delivered.

Finally, your premise that "A person can't prove it" means it's not so, is what's called an "Appeal to Ignorance" and is also an invalid premise. For example, a person presents a passage from the Koran. You could check the correctness of the claim, and then sight a source which would confirm or deny that passage, but you simply restate, "Prove it" (though not is no many words, this is the essence of what you have done.) Thus, an "Appeal to Ignorance". The quickest way to refute a persons claims about the Koran, is to check the information. If you are un-willing to do this, then it seems (right or wrong) your goal is to simply state your opinion, and not to determine whether your position is reasonable or not.


Best regards,
--Tachus

[RedTop]

Originally posted by Bolo6
First off I will venture to say that 'googling' violent koran quotes will return anything but reliable information. What I was looking for was for someone to get off of the computer and actually read a verse. Believing most of these web sites is like taking muppet banter seriously.

You'll wait the rest of your life more than likely before I pick up a koran and read about the muslim way of dealing with me.

Redtop you have every right to feel the way that you do, but the attitude reflected inyou post reveals exactly why this country is in the predicament it is in. The people that run this country feel very much the same way. You don't feel the need to understand anyone but the ones who look the same as you and think the same as you and pray to the same God. By the way Allah and the Christian God are considered to be one and the same. FYI the same entity is called Yahweh by the Jews.

Your wrong. First off I don't care that someone maybe a muslim. I don't care that someone may be a Baptist , Catholic , lutheran or whatever. It's a free country here and people may worship whom they feel is thier god. I don't care what color people are or that they "Look" like me or anything of the sorts. I am a believer in the LAW. I am a believer in  , if you hit me in the mouth I'll hit you back. I'm not gonna sit and bleed and try to understand why that person hit me. If I KNOW I didn't do something to warrant it , you can bet you tail I'll fight back and not sit there trying to talk about it. Especially if the only reason was because I am not a muslim. And Allah isn't MY god..nor have I EVER been taught that. Arguments can be made about what the bible says and that it maybe violent. But I haven't been taught in all my years of church to kill the ifidels.



The fact that you don't care "two cents" to give an effort to get along with those that are different from you speaks volumes about you character and your values. These same values you pass on to your kids grandkids neices and nephews that you mentioned, which from your last post seems to be intolerance, and ignorance. The ignorance stemming from the fact that you beleive that all muslims are out to kill you. A good way to find out is, and here is a novel idea, try talking to one. Most muslims want the same things you want. To be able to provide for their families. This conflict didn't start with 9/11 and it won't end by killing all the muslims or the terrorists. It will only end when the cycle of ignorance and intolerance is broken on both sides.

My character and values. Interesting. I taught my kids fine values thank you. I teach my grandkids fine values thank you. Your the 2nd person on this BBS that have siad someting to me along that lines. Yet most people I know in real life think I am a great person and a great father. Because I don't choose to "understand" brings my character and values in question. I see common sense.

I'll ask you again , in a room of a 100 muslims , 10 of them being terrorists , can you pick the 10 out? No. So with that said , and knowing that jihad has been declared by the muslim whackjobs, how am I to know who is a good guy and who is a bad guy. And , taken to the next step , how am I to know that the muslims conforming to a U.S. way of life , arent setting a bunchof us up for a big fall? Just trust em right? You trust em...I'll not hand someone a rope that wants to hang me. And I don't feel , living in the U.S. that it is MY place to understand them. It's THIER place to understand ME. If you go to lets say Spain. You feel thet they should speak english? That they should "Understand" you? You want to communicate you need to make the effort. Not them.  



You mention that you were a Christian man. But when did Christ teach to hate those that may hate you or even want to kill you? If Christ were here on this earth today, what would he say of your position? Do you beleive it is in line with the teachings western religion has attributed to him?

I re-read my post. I never used the word hate. Not once. I don't hate muslims. I don't hate anyone really. (cept my ex-wife). I just don't trust a culture that teaches what they may teach. God gave me common sense. He may not be impressed with me staying away from a people that teach thier kids from birth to kill the infidels and treat thier women badly. If thats the case , then I maybe in a bad light with God. However I don't think I am.

Your entitled to what you think and what you want to try to "understand". Sometime in the future , we're going to pay for our political politeness in this country.

[john9001]

RedTop

[Yknurd]

Originally posted by Bolo6
Your attempted comparison of Black Muslims from the Nation of Islam and followers of the Islamic faith is inaccurate. It is not the same religion. Nice try though.

I guess then Baptists, Protestants, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, ad nauseum aren't really Christians...just Catholics.

[edit] and just how ****ing stupid is your ass...you want to split hairs...**** you then...it doesn't take many brain cells to search both reports and video for Al Qaeda members ****ing beheading people.

I hope you go to Iraq and get captured by them and as you cry to whatever god you have those peace loving Muslims slowly decapitate you with their rusty, dull sword all the while chanting Allah is great.

Good Day, you bloody banana!

[Bolo6]

Without understanding the will be no peace. Some of you may not want peace. Our leaders don't want peace, it is not profitable. You've all been mislead. I am not faking politeness either. I have no ill will towards any of you. Although the same can not be said for feelings towards me. And the tradition in islam states that the same God that visited Moses, Abraham and Jesus, also spoke to Muhhamed.
And speaking of Jesus, there is doubt historically as to whether or not he ever existed. His story is very similar to that of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. This ancient Egyptian myth pre-dated Christianity by more that 2000 years. Today we call that plagerism.
This is not a debate that will be solved on these boards. Thank you all for replying. In closing I only ask that you challenge what you have been taught and told. And don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.
PS
YKNurd, do you need a hug?

[Hortlund]

The most pathetic retreat from a discussion Ive ever seen.

You promised you would condemn islam. Hold your word.

[Bolo6]

You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.

[WMLute]

"Live the Life I Love,
Love the Life I Live."
-LeVarr Treadwell


Who the heck is LeVarr Tredwell?  

And why are you givin' them credit for a McKinley Morganfield song?

Originally posted by Bolo6
You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.

What does the bias of a website have to do with it?

Are the quotes accurate?  Can you provide a source you would rather us use?  I am 100% positive (havin' studied this) that I  can find the same information provided to you at any webiste you would choose to provide as "reputable".

Which, btw, you have as of yet to do.

So far, you have only provided us with opinions  (read what you said above about bias opinions being bad) and not a single scholarly article, fact, source what ever.

Untill you do, you've lost.  You have zero chance of holding up your end of the debate/argument/discussion here with opinions only.

[Tachus]

Originally posted by Bolo6
Without understanding the will be no peace. Some of you may not want peace. Our leaders don't want peace, it is not profitable. You've all been mislead. I am not faking politeness either. I have no ill will towards any of you. Although the same can not be said for feelings towards me. And the tradition in islam states that the same God that visited Moses, Abraham and Jesus, also spoke to Muhhamed.
And speaking of Jesus, there is doubt historically as to whether or not he ever existed. His story is very similar to that of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. This ancient Egyptian myth pre-dated Christianity by more that 2000 years. Today we call that plagerism.
This is not a debate that will be solved on these boards. Thank you all for replying. In closing I only ask that you challenge what you have been taught and told. And don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.
PS
YKNurd, do you need a hug?

I have no ill will, and in fact have not interjected my opinion on the main topic of this thread. (Although I did address your claim concerning the "one" god for all issue.)

What I did do, was to point out that for an argument to be valid, it must have a premise that is NOT faulty. Your's do not meet that commonly accepted standard.

I also fail to understand, why you simple didn't check the information that was presented. Or why you didn't address the points made by others, with something other than "This is my opinion" Since you have failed to do either, I  makes it difficult to take you seriously, and makes one wonder, if your only goal is to "stir the pot" and have no real desire to be engaged in a rational discussion.

Case in point, the issue of Muslims, Jews and Christians having the same god. I quoted the Bible, used a rational analogy, and presented a case based on biblical teaching. You replied, with, according to tradition,... and then moved onto something that was completely irrelevant to the issues at hand. (Jesus, is a liar.) You didn't make any reference to a source, nor make any attempt to speak to the premise or conclusion I presented.

I'm not mocking you, so don't misunderstand my next statement. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to learn how to put together a valid argument, using reasonable premises, that support a rational conclusion. I would recommend the book, "How to Think About Weird Things". Or take a practical reasoning course at you local community college.

One last point, on this issue the origins of religious ideas and such things. (Although, this is important regardless of the topic.) It has to do with our presuppositions and how they affect the way we view "Facts" I posted this in a other thread, but it fits the need here as well. I'll paste it in below.

_____________________________ ______
Just a note on presuppositions and how they influence our view of the "Facts"

For example. There are allot of Flood Legends, nearly every culture has one.

That is a "Fact". Now, on to the issue of how we "interpret that fact" and how that interpretation is influenced by our presupposition.

If you start with the view that the Bible is NOT accurate, but a collection of stories. The you might view these "Flood Legends" as support of you position. The Flood in the Bible has it's roots in the Babylonian flood legend of Gilgamesh.

However, if I start with from the position that the Bible is accurate. What would I expect to find? Well I would expect to find, flood legends in every culture. (Because according to the Bible, everyone alive today, is a descendant of Noah and his three sons) I would expect to find some of these legends to be very similar to the Bible account of the flood. (Some of the oral stories would be better preserved than others.) I would expect to find the Biblical account, to be among the "The Most" believable. Well guess, what we find, Exactly what I just described. (This does not "Prove" the Bible is true, just as claiming the Biblical flood is just a story, based on Babylonian legend, doesn't "Prove" it's false.)

The same is true of religious ideas and concepts. There are many that are very similar, but if they all "originated" with Noah, this is exactly what we would expect to find. Furthermore, since the nation of Israel was not founded for some time after the flood. I would expect to find flood legends, and religious ideas and concepts, very similar to the "True" accounts which are recorded in the Bible; and I would expect to find some of those recorded, prior to the recording of the accurate account (the one found in the Bible)



The point being, whether we like to admit it or not our presuppositions greatly effect how we view the "Facts". We all have the same "Facts" many times the difference in our conclusions is in how we "View" those facts.
_____________________________ _______

So the fact that some myth pre-dates Jesus, does not prove, it was the original. Those concepts could have come from the "correct" one, and passed down from Noah, being corrupted over time.


Best regards,
--Tachus

[Tachus]

Originally posted by Bolo6
You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.

Actually, I would contend there is rarely an "unbiased opinion" to be had on most any topic that matters. We are all, biased. Thus the point I make about our presuppositions affecting the way we view "Facts"

Also, as I mentioned in an early post, though it is proper to consider a source, when we look at a premise. It is not proper to dismiss it out of hand, without just cause.

If a drunk, tells a kid they shouldn't drink and drive, does that mean the statement isn't valid? No, the statement is valid, regardless of the source. So if someone that is completely insane, or biased or whatever, puts together a valid and reasonable argument, dismissing it out of hand, is an un-reasonable response. Which it seems is what you have done.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by Bolo6
You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.

What's this?

Originally posted by Hortlund
Surah 9:5 (kill the infidels)
Surah 9:29 (fight against the infidels until they submit to islam)
Surah 9:38-39 (Join the jihad or go to hell)
Surah 9:123 (fight the infidels, be harsh to them)

Surah 4:11 (women inheritance rights - gets 1/2 share)
Surah 4:34 (men are responsible for women, violence may be used if woman is rebellious)


Neat. Start condemning.


Of cource you dont believe its true, you are a moslem and Im an infidel to you, therefore you would rather force me to convert to islam, or kill me.  

And this is relevant to the discussion how exactly?
 
Surah 9:29 EXPLICITLY tells moslems to fight against those who do not believe allah and those who do not acknowledge the "religion of truth" (i.e. Islam) among the people of the book (thats us Christians, and the Jews), until they submit and are subdued.

Stop calling me sir. We all know you are just faking politeness anyway.

Bolo6, would you please post what Surah 9:29 says in your Qu'ran.  Doing so would clear a lot of things up.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Bolo6
You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.

Just a point here. You have quoted nothing at all to support your contention or to counter the quotes already listed by others. Do you have anything to add other than your opinion? Preferably something quoted from the quran. It's time to put up or STFU.

[bustr]

Gents,

If you do a search for Dr Havva Houshmand you will find that he or she is a faculty member at Albuquerque TVI Community College, Arts & Sciences dept. He or she has helped do the language and possibly quarn or sufi related translations for an Iraninan or Persian feminist story.

Bolo needs to stop his or her deflecting direct questions with vague moral and scriptural superiority and provide answers to questions that can be verified by contacting real people or by the internet.

The style of bolo's dialog is way too familure. Almost seems feminist and Sufi from a student union ideological dialog session or a one sided professors views on reality.

[Bolo6]

First off, All I have offered are questions which none of you have answered fully if even at all.

Lets take sura 9-29 for example. The one I read says God not Allah,teleologic.com. Big difference. I read the sura and take it to mean fight those who do not beleive at all. Try leaving your computer and going into a library. I think the teleologic blog is anything but reputable. And Dr Housmand is Iranian, but she is not Muslim. She has a very interesting story about her escape from the Khomeni, but ya'll wouldn't be interested in that. I could attempt to refute what some of you are saying by finding other websites, but I prefer to go to a library instead. Or talk to a muslim before I condem the entire religion. I have an open mind, most of you don't. That can't be changed by me on a bulletin board. Islam is no better that Christianity or Judaism.

PS
WMLUte the question is who the hell is Mckinely Morganfield?

[Tango]

Originally posted by Bolo6
I read the sura and take it to mean fight those who do not beleive at all.

So that means that if you don't believe as they do, they are supposed to kill you. Sounds to me like its a violent barbaric religion.