AH religious Scholars

[Dichotomy]

I believe I already did that for you.  

http://www.searchtruth.com appears to be a pretty good source of info as well.

[Tachus]

Originally posted by Bolo6
Truth be told, and this is according to Dr Havva Housmand, professor of religious studies, historically Christians have persecuted Jews far worse than Muslims.

Again, I don't know, what it teaches. However, the issue of "Who, did Who" has no bearing on the "teaching" of a religion. (At least not in defining it)

So, the topics could be, "The conduct of religious groups, today and throughout history" or "What does a religion teach", but first should not be used to "define" the second. (The second "What it teaches" could indeed influence the first, although not necessarily. The the First "Behavior" should not be used to define the second "teaching", though it could be used to support that definition. So, "It" teaches "this" and we observe that in the behavior of it's followers, is valid. However, look at how they behave, and that must be what "it" teaches, is not.)


Best regards,
--Tachus

[Hap]

Originally posted by Tachus
the "teaching" of a religion

You did a really good job a couple post up.  The teachings are limpid.  The chattering classes are another matter.

[Yknurd]

Some quotes from the Koran on violence against infidels...

Sura 4-89: “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks…”

Sura 9-29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

Sura 22-9: “As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.”

Sura 47-4: “When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”

A vast majority of Muslims regard the Koran (the source of these quotes) as the Word of God. The word is fixed, immutable, and cannot be changed by man. The Koran is what it is. No discussion of the text as a human work which shows cultural influences and evolves over time is allowed. Show me comparable passages in the teachings of the Buddha, or of Jesus, or Confucius. You can not.

BTW: Moslems argue not over the words but the meaning. Translations are done and since none are "offical" (all translation of the Koran are officially considered inaccurate) the meaning in English has some variations. I've read one Moslem scholar argue that all these passages are not to be interperted literally. Yes, they will say the Koran does contain these passages but either (a) these commands are not to be taken litterally or (b) the words don't mean what they used to mean. Personally, I don't buy that theory.

Islam is the most violent major religion.

quick google search on 'violent koran quotes' and first was http://www.teleologic.com/archives/2005/07/some_quotes_fro_1.html


Of course the bible was pretty violent too

[The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.]  "When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands.  Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men."   (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)

Oooo, another good one:

      Bible Quote for February 4

 

Kill Homosexuals

    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

[Shuffler]

It's more entertaining here than on 200.

Personally I think it's a travesty to mistreat any upstanding human, however, at GITMO we're not talking about any of those types. The original discussion was about dogs and vick. When you bring something as far fetched into the discussion as the treatment of murdering scum at GITMO you have to be prepared for pretty much anything. I would never even think of defending someone who would just as soon cut my head off for no reason. On the other hand there are lawyers who make a living defending trash and putting our families in danger every day.

[Yknurd]

Burning Babies!! Burning Babies!!

[Yknurd]

More Peace Loving Muslims

Muslims + bakery = murder!



Just think if it was called 'Your White Aryan Bakery' instead of 'Your Black Muslim Bakery'

Slate's article

[Tango]

Originally posted by Bolo6
And contrary to popular belief, I am not muslim, nor do I follow any particular religion for that matter.

If that is so then how do you know the koran doesn't teach to lie to indidels and kill them? We've shown you sites that quote from it and you still refuse to answer.

Is it because we are infidels?

[RedTop]

Originally posted by Bolo6
snip....
And Redtop, please take no more offense than I took at the insinuation that I am a traitor.

I don't think I insinuated you were a traitor....

I said.....

I get the feeling he may be a bit biased and on the side of , lets say , the not so trust worthy people.

If you think that is insinuating your a traitor then so be it. Because you may align yourself with a side I don't agree with , nor have any kind words for doesn't make you a traitor. Even in my narrow scope. I may find you mis-guided , or believe your dead wrong. But until you pick up a wepon to fight FOR them....or denounce your citizenship , then your not really a traitor...just a person with whom I totally disagree with.

I'll sum up what I said and deleted....

You have NO IDEA what a terrorist is. You can't tell me if you were in a room with 100 muslims , and 10 of them were terrorists that you would have any idea that they were. None what so ever.

I don't read the koran , nor will I ever read it. I don't want to try to understand what it is that I did wrong other than being born an american , that pissed someone off so bad that an entire muslim population wants me dead. Not to mention my family , friends , aquaintences or anyone that isn't a muslim. And , you can set there and tell me that not all muslims are like that. That could be and probably is right. But , which ones are not that way? Anyway to tell?

Do the good muslims wear a ribbon or something stating that they are not big believers in my dieing? T-shirts that may say "Leave RedTop and freinds and family alone". No I didn't think so. So bascially I have to believe that they aren't all like that, yet have no way to know that JoeJihad that is riding the bus I am on is just a good ole boy muslim tanking a ride , or a terrorist scoping out how to blow this bus to bits in a few days while I may be on it. HE smiles and talks and has a plesant dimenor about him , all the while planning on killing a bus full of people. Seems like there were some guys back a few years ago that acted that way. Let me see....OH YEAH...the flew some planes into some tall buildings....maybe you remember that.

This is where I have drawn my line in the sand per se'. I have seen very few leading muslims come out and flat say that they are against what is going on with this extremist crap. Very few. SO I don't trust any of them. None what so ever.

I'm a christian white male just trying to make it to retirment. I have goals and dreams like most Americans. I have grandkids , neices and nephews. I have a loving wife and just go threw my day doing the best I can for her and myself. I have a couple of kids. I served my country from 1981 - 1985 in the U.S. Navy. None of what I have done in my life warrants my being killed because I am some type of infidel in the eyes of a few muslims. The very ones I cant tell from another one.

But yet , you seem to speak to the ole Rodney King theroy of..."Can't we all just get along"? Well No.....We can't. And personally I don't give two cents to make an effort.

There are people here in this country that want your butt just as dead as me. I fyou live in the U.S.. But you go on with the side of being nice to all. Trying to be that savior of all mankind. ME....I'll just make sure the guns are loaded in my home. I'll make sure that I pay my taxes. I'll make sure I do what I can for my family , friends and those I choose to help. I'll go on providing for my wife and I. I'll attend my church. I'll take in some Football , basebball and a race or 2 on TV. I'll play my Golf , fly on my puter and live my life the way I WANT TO.....and I WON'T LIVE in fear of some Muslim whack job that wants to hurt me. I just won't have anything to do with them.

If I ever have to...I'll make sure he sees Allah LONG BEFORE I see God.

I'm sure this is not what you wanted to hear....but...what can I say.

[Bolo6]

First off I will venture to say that 'googling' violent koran quotes will return anything but reliable information. What I was looking for was for someone to get off of the computer and actually read a verse. Believing most of these web sites is like taking muppet banter seriously.

Redtop you have every right to feel the way that you do, but the attitude reflected inyou post reveals exactly why this country is in the predicament it is in. The people that run this country feel very much the same way. You don't feel the need to understand anyone but the ones who look the same as you and think the same as you and pray to the same God. By the way Allah and the Christian God are considered to be one and the same. FYI the same entity is called Yahweh by the Jews.

The fact that you don't care "two cents" to give an effort to get along with those that are different from you speaks volumes about you character and your values. These same values you pass on to your kids grandkids neices and nephews that you mentioned, which from your last post seems to be intolerance, and ignorance. The ignorance stemming from the fact that you beleive that all muslims are out to kill you. A good way to find out is, and here is a novel idea, try talking to one. Most muslims want the same things you want. To be able to provide for their families. This conflict didn't start with 9/11 and it won't end by killing all the muslims or the terrorists. It will only end when the cycle of ignorance and intolerance is broken on both sides.

You mention that you were a Christian man. But when did Christ teach to hate those that may hate you or even want to kill you? If Christ were here on this earth today, what would he say of your position? Do you beleive it is in line with the teachings western religion has attributed to him?

[Bolo6]

Originally posted by Yknurd
More Peace Loving Muslims

Muslims + bakery = murder!



Just think if it was called 'Your White Aryan Bakery' instead of 'Your Black Muslim Bakery'

Slate's article

Your attempted comparison of Black Muslims from the Nation of Islam and followers of the Islamic faith is inaccurate. It is not the same religion. Nice try though.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Bolo6
Hortlund, please quote for me from the Qu'ran where these instructions are written,

Surah 9:5 (kill the infidels)
Surah 9:29 (fight against the infidels until they submit to islam)
Surah 9:38-39 (Join the jihad or go to hell)
Surah 9:123 (fight the infidels, be harsh to them)

Surah 4:11 (women inheritance rights - gets 1/2 share)
Surah 4:34 (men are responsible for women, violence may be used if woman is rebellious)

I will read them for myself and then I will condem the entire religion as well.

Neat. Start condemning.

I think I will not find these things however because I don't beleive it is true.

Of cource you dont believe its true, you are a moslem and Im an infidel to you, therefore you would rather force me to convert to islam, or kill me.  

Truth be told, and this is according to Dr Havva Housmand, professor of religious studies, historically Christians have persecuted Jews far worse than Muslims.

And this is relevant to the discussion how exactly?

In fact, Christians and Jews are not considered infidels because they are a "people of the Book" Your facts are simply wrong sir.

Surah 9:29 EXPLICITLY tells moslems to fight against those who do not believe allah and those who do not acknowledge the "religion of truth" (i.e. Islam) among the people of the book (thats us Christians, and the Jews), until they submit and are subdued.

Stop calling me sir. We all know you are just faking politeness anyway.

[bustr]

Is Dr Havva Houshmand a follower of Sufiism?

And Bolo is your refrence point for islam via the study of Sufism?

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Bolo6
Your attempted comparison of Black Muslims from the Nation of Islam and followers of the Islamic faith is inaccurate. It is not the same religion. Nice try though.

Many people have attempted to belittle or degrade my followers by referring to them as unlettered or unschooled. They do this to imply that the believers in Islam are ignorant.

If such a claim were so, then all the more credit should be given for our striving for self-elevation with so little. But truth represents itself and stands by itself. No followers, nor any other people are more zealous about the acquiring of knowledge than my followers.

Throughout the Holy Qur'an, the duty of a Muslim to acquire knowledge is spelled out."

--The Honorable Elijah Muhammad

The legendary leader of the Nation of Islam (Black Muslims) thinks he was preaching Islam, he went on the Hajj and everything.

The NOI website says:

"WE BELIEVE In the One God whose proper Name is Allah.

WE BELIEVE in the Holy Qur'an and in the Scriptures of all the Prophets of God."

Sounds like Islam to me.

[bj229r]

3 pages, and he has supplied naught but opinion, no links, no facts (conjectures AREN'T facts) and has dismissed the source of every fact tossed his way. Liberal bbs troll 101:noid