Neo-Nazism and Re-enactment groups...

[storch]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Should I go ahead and lock this now?  There is no way a civil discussion about this is going to happen.

oh ye of little faith.

[evenhaim]

hes acttually kinda right storch this is a very hard topic to discuss with guys like sweet2th frequenting this boards

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Should I go ahead and lock this now?  There is no way a civil discussion about this is going to happen.

LOL...new sig!

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Chairboy

Perhaps a review of what the constitution stands for would be in order, your understanding of the liberties our soldiers have fought and died for through the ages is lacking and your statement ignorant.

Well, he is Israeli...

Edit - Bronk beat me to it...

But, Evenhaim, Chairboy did outline pretty well what America's 1st Amendment is about.  There once was a time when things we take for granted today were taboo to speak of.  It goes both ways.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
well, all this talk about 'its just Re-enactment', but what if People/children in Israel
were allowed to wear the brown shirts of the Hitler Youth
and sell Nazi memorabilia?

imagine that!

No offense, but I've never understood how Germany can be considered a free country when freedom of speech is so limited.  

I understand your history...  But do you really not trust yourselves that much, or what?

Not trying to be a jerk here, but I have been wondering about this for awhile.

[evenhaim]

vuda, i take your comment seriously into consideration and understand its just are these laws applicable today even after 200 or so years of complete and utter change in american sociiety and in the world? im pretty sure they didnt have neo nazi skin heads in the 18oos

my 2 cents
freezman

[evenhaim]

To rephrase the effective range of freedom of expresion when it comes to hate should be killed, why is it that the kkk can hold their yearly "rise" convention. these are events that directly effect society and can end up in the recruitment of new kkk members who will in turn preform hate crimes. I believe even holding a nazi rally or convention should be considered a hate crime by law enforcment.

once again  my 2 cents

[Vudak]

The bottom line is, it is Freedom of Speech, not "Freedom of Speech that corresponds to [Evenhaim's] morals." (Insert whoever - you, me, Christian, Muslim, Jew, whatever).

Saying, "[derogatory term for Jewish person]" is not a hate crime.  Saying "
[derogatory term for Jewish person]" and then committing a crime against said Jewish person could very much be construed as one.

[evenhaim]

as much as i can see your point i cant get rid of the feeling that from any persoective but the one of the skin head its wrong .!

[Vudak]

Originally posted by evenhaim
as much as i can see your point i cant get rid of the feeling that from any persoective but the one of the skin head its wrong .!

Well, here's a good way to look at the First Amendment (let's pretend you are an American)...

You have to respect the skinhead's RIGHT to say what they like.  You do NOT have to respect them for ACTUALLY saying it.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by Bronk
evenhaim
Senior Member
Registered: Oct 2006
Location: tel aviv , israel
Posts: 1406
---------------------------------------------
Bit over the top considering his loc?


Bronk

You may wish to read the message by Evenhaim I was responding to:

Originally posted by evenhaim
Now i know about americas 1st ammendment but wtf isnt that pushing it? this was on 102.7 kiis fm if any of you know that station

Since he was talking about the first amendment, your "correction" is pretty dang silly looking now, ain't it?

[Tachus]

Originally posted by evenhaim
To rephrase the effective range of freedom of expresion when it comes to hate should be killed, why is it that the kkk can hold their yearly "rise" convention. these are events that directly effect society and can end up in the recruitment of new kkk members who will in turn preform hate crimes. I believe even holding a nazi rally or convention should be considered a hate crime by law enforcment.

once again  my 2 cents

The reason why, is really very simple. Today in our culture "most" are outraged at what the KKK stands for and would like to see those types of ideas ended in our country. However, UNTIL they commit a crime they have the "RIGHT" (in our country) to speak openly and freely about what they believe, and I hope that right is never taken from them. WHY? WHY? I'll tell you why, because I'm not so foolish as to believe that I will always be a part of the majority. What I hold to be true may not always be "acceptable" by the masses. What I say, someday might be considered "Hate", and I have no desire to be oppressed or imprisoned for what I "believe" unless I commit some kind of crime.

And the very best way to ensure my continued liberty, is to fight to make sure, no one (not even racist KKK member) lose theirs.

People have came to this country for all kinds of reasons. A great many of them however came here seeking relief from oppression and persecution, not because of what they DID, but  because of what they BELIEVED.

I find it a bit ironic, that "Hate" is such a terrible thing, unless of course that "Hate" is pointed at a group or belief that the masses don't take kindly to. We are told to be tolerant, but that tolerance is never extended to those that we disagree with. Don't misunderstand me, I despise what the KKK stands for. I just find the whole "Hate" and "Tolerance" thing a bit hypocritical.

I believe in tolerance. Not just Tolerance for those I agree with, but also for those that I DON'T agree with. Not a tolerance that says, I have to accept what they hold to be true, or concede it is right, or ok, but tolerance which says, they don't get their rights stripped aways because I disagree with them.

Where will the oppressed flee I wonder, when we become like the rest of the world. (Sadly we may not have to wait long to find out, we seem to be well on our way already.)

Best regards,
--Tachus

[Angus]

I'd rather keep the ties on guys like this one:


When you have blurting propoganda like this:

"It is a major error to assume that England's plutocrats slipped into the war against their will or even against their intentions. The opposite is true. The English warmongers wanted the war and used all the resources at their disposal over the years to bring it about. They surely were not surprised by the war. English plutocracy had no goal other than to unleash war against Germany at the right moment, and this since Germany first began to seek once again to be a world power.

Poland really had little to do with the outbreak of war between the Reich and England. It was only a means to an end. England did not support the Polish government out of principle or for humanitarian reasons. That is clear from the fact that England gave Poland no help of any kind whatsoever when the war began. Nor did England take any measures against Russia. The opposite, in fact. The London warring clique to this day has tried to bring Russia into the campaign of aggression against Germany.

The encirclement of Germany long before the outbreak of the war was traditional English policy. From the beginning, England has always directed its main military might against Germany. It never could tolerate a strong Reich on the Continent. It justified its policy by claiming that it wanted to maintain a balance of forces in Europe."

It is dangerous. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech any more. This is the twisted way of human manipulation. When you hammer nonsense into the youth, fuel it up with youthful energy. For my part, tolerance for Nazis is zero. I do not want my children to grow up with twisted ideas from neo-nazis. (oh, I will use lower case when I refer to them).
20th century showed us enough of what racial enspired politics and propoganda  could do.

[Tachus]

Originally posted by Angus
For my part, tolerance for Nazis is zero. I do not want my children to grow up with twisted ideas from neo-nazis. (oh, I will use lower case when I refer to them).
20th century showed us enough of what racial enspired politics and propoganda  could do.

Of course you don't want your children growing as Nazis either do I. But what if somebody DOES? Do you get to decide that for them too?

Richard Dawkins says religious instruction to children is a form of mental abuse, what happens when that becomes the prevailing thought in a country. (Well it already is in some) Dawkins clearly doesn't want his kids growing up and believe in God, so does he get to make the decision for me also?

I've seen a number of posts on this BB that believe religion is the "evil" that plagues mankind, what happens when that becomes the prevailing thought? I lose my rights to free speech?

Besides, you can not "make" anyone change their views, you can only silence them in the public arena. So in essence what is done is this:
We don't like what you believe so we are going to strip away your rights. We have no tolerance for you in-tolerance, we hate your hatred, and for the sake of the children and the betterment of society we are going to oppress you.

We have an ongoing debate in this country about "legislating morality" (and I'm NOT in favor of it myself) Oddly enough, many of the same people that are against legislating morality, are in favor of "hate speech" laws. How is that NOT legislating morality?


We should never forget, "For the betterment of society" is why the Jews were slaughtered by the Nazis in the first place, how ironic.


Lastly, I an NOT defending, Hate, Racism, Nazism, or anything like it (I'm opposed to all of them). I'm defending the rights of the individual (Respect of Persons). I believe history demonstrates that if the philosophical foundation of a nation's government is "Utilitarianism" as opposed to "Respect of Persons" that government will have a MUCH greater tendency to be oppressive to some of the minorities that it governs. Many times, brutally so.

Best regards,
--Tachus

[Angus]

"Of course you don't want your children growing as Nazis either do I. But what if somebody DOES? Do you get to decide that for them too?"

I don't want them to grow up UNDER their ideology. There has been enough of running blood exactly becase of Nazi ideology. So, screw their freedom!