Author Topic: Neo-Nazism and Re-enactment groups... (Read 3152 times)

Vudak · « **Reply #60 on:** August 30, 2007, 10:28:20 AM »

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Originally posted by Angus

I don't want them to grow up UNDER their ideology. There has been enough of running blood exactly becase of Nazi ideology. So, screw their freedom!

Like Tachus, what sprang right into my mind when reading your first post was religion.

I have to admit I am personally of the belief that some of the religious instruction in this country preaches hate and intolerance (and you can search any thread on this forum regarding gay marriage for some "eloquent" examples). However, despite my personal views, I will certainly never try and silence religion. I'll just use my own freedom of speech to speak against some parts of it. Just as I'd use my own freedom of speech to speak against Nazism or such.

As Tachus said, you can't change someone's beliefs, even if you do silence them. So why do that? By telling a Nazi they have less rights than I do, how am I acting any differently than a Nazi telling Jews that they have less rights than he?

(And, as a disclaimer, I'm not really comparing religion to Nazism. I'm just offering a more pertinent example of freedom of speech in this country).

Tachus · « **Reply #61 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:17:01 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
There has been enough of running blood exactly becase of Nazi ideology. So, screw their freedom!

That's the same thing that is said about Muslims today. That's what was said about Japanese Americans during WWII when they were placed in camps in our country. It was said about the Native Americans in this country as well. It has been said about a great many peoples in different countries and in different times throughout history. All oppressed with different levels of severity.

It's truly unfortunate it's still be said today.

Best regards,
--Tachus

Angus · « **Reply #62 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:21:02 AM »

Nazism = NATIONAL-SOCIALISM. The main idea of the Nazis is preaching that a certain group of people should, because of their gender, be considered superior.
The Neo-Nazis are being caught again and again with hate-propoganda, as well as trying to fake around with their dirty background.
Now, many people on this board may call me a liberal or a nanny, but in this case I'm right old fashioned. Nazism was beaten down the hard way, it got quite some presentation of it's true core, it's modern presentators show the ways of old allright, and we should bloody well know that just "speaking" is not enough.
And, we should also perhaps consider the "rights" of those who fought against Nazism and were slain by Nazism.
(of course education is a key theme here, but I'd rather not see a Nazi-encore just in case).

Vudak · « **Reply #63 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:26:54 AM »

Well, I wouldn't necessarily call you a liberal, Angus, but if you really are against Freedom of Speech, I might have to call you a nazi

I have a hard time understanding how you're not "getting" this

But I suppose that just goes to show we grew up in different places.

Tachus · « **Reply #64 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:41:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Nazism = NATIONAL-SOCIALISM. The main idea of the Nazis is preaching that a certain group of people should, because of their gender, be considered superior.
The Neo-Nazis are being caught again and again with hate-propoganda, as well as trying to fake around with their dirty background.
Now, many people on this board may call me a liberal or a nanny, but in this case I'm right old fashioned. Nazism was beaten down the hard way, it got quite some presentation of it's true core, it's modern presentators show the ways of old allright, and we should bloody well know that just "speaking" is not enough.
And, we should also perhaps consider the "rights" of those who fought against Nazism and were slain by Nazism.
(of course education is a key theme here, but I'd rather not see a Nazi-encore just in case).

I'm not calling you anything Angus. I understand you have passionate feelings about the issue. As i said before I do too, I despise racism in every form. I just know how quickly things can change in a country. Today it's the Nazis and the KKK, tomorrow it's the Muslims and after that it's the home schoolers teacher their kids about the Bible. I just don't like the idea of "groups" being denied the right to "believe" something, and to express those beliefs without fear of persecution. Not because I want to protect their freedom, but because I want to protect mine.

Best regards,
--Tachus

Angus · « **Reply #65 on:** August 30, 2007, 12:48:55 PM »

A Nazi has chosen to follow the path of his/her opinion.
A Moslim has chosen or been raised with his/her religion.
A coloured person, or a born jew is from race, without a choice.
Exactly there is it where I think the Nazis cross the line. They choose to hate people who they should have no trouble with, and for their race. Jew, negro, gypsy, then on to slavic. Just sick.
If you go on to specifically hot-beliver groups you have something close as well. Either hating other people for NOT having YOUR (exact) belief, or even considering them as low as the butcher's meal for that sake.
Tachus, I got your point, and Vudak, I disagree with you. The trend of Nazis has to get stomped with a heavier boot than the liberal and speaking one. But the stomping, didn't cost much of the freedom we have.
It has, after all, been done once and at great cost.

Vudak · « **Reply #66 on:** August 30, 2007, 01:00:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
and Vudak, I disagree with you. The trend of Nazis has to get stomped with a heavier boot than the liberal and speaking one. But the stomping, didn't cost much of the freedom we have.
It has, after all, been done once and at great cost.

Well, Angus, all I can really say is you're running the risk of opening the door of unintended consequences.

I can't understand how you don't see that.

evenhaim · « **Reply #67 on:** August 30, 2007, 01:09:49 PM »

As much as I see everyones pov, i would like to respectfully remove me statement from the argument considering i have a biased opinion per say

moot · « **Reply #68 on:** August 30, 2007, 01:15:19 PM »

Let the nazis preach their BS, and let everyone else know better. Just like trolls on the net, not feeding them and seeing their BS for what it is is the best solution.
In fact, not thoroughly deconstructing nazis' racist propaganda in a public way for all people to see and recognize as true so that nazis have zero authority in everyone's mind is more condemnable than letting nazis preach on a valid technicality like freedom of speech.

And "hate" is everywhere. Targeting only the nazi variety is incongruous.

Vudak · « **Reply #69 on:** August 30, 2007, 01:19:55 PM »

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Originally posted by evenhaim
As much as I see everyones pov, i would like to respectfully remove me statement from the argument considering i have a biased opinion per say

You know, I'm an American of Polish descent... But notice I call myself that, rather than "Polish-American." The American is what I'm proud of. The rights accorded to Americans are what I'm proud of, even if I have to extend the same rights to certain Americans that I'm not proud of.

Does that make sense?

Tachus · « **Reply #70 on:** August 30, 2007, 01:25:47 PM »

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Originally posted by evenhaim
As much as I see everyones pov, i would like to respectfully remove me statement from the argument considering i have a biased opinion per say

We all have biased opinions

We all have certain presuppositions that effect how we view the world around us, and life experiences that shape our thinking. (So your opinions are no more biased than the next guys)

BTW I "Get it" as far as not wanting to be forced to re-live some of the horrific things that have gone on in the past at the hands of nazis, (or other groups like them) or the fear that your children or grandchildren would be forced to do so. I have the same concerns and fears.

We just don't always agree on how to ensure it never happens.

Best regards,
--Tachus

evenhaim · « **Reply #71 on:** August 30, 2007, 01:29:00 PM »

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Originally posted by Vudak
You know, I'm an American of Polish descent... But notice I call myself that, rather than "Polish-American." The American is what I'm proud of. The rights accorded to Americans are what I'm proud of, even if I have to extend the same rights to certain Americans that I'm not proud of.

Does that make sense?

yes;)

Quote

We all have biased opinions We all have certain presuppositions that effect how we view the world around us, and life experiences that shape our thinking. (So your opinions are no more biased than the next guys)BTW I "Get it" as far as not wanting to be forced to re-live some of the horrific things that have gone on in the past at the hands of nazis, (or other groups like them) or the fear that your children or grandchildren would be forced to do so. I have the same concerns and fears.

We just don't always agree on how to ensure it never happens.

Best regards,
--Tachus

very good sum up and understandable:aok

Bronk · « **Reply #72 on:** August 30, 2007, 03:14:50 PM »

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Originally posted by Chairboy
You may wish to read the message by Evenhaim I was responding to:

I did.

Since he was talking about the first amendment, your "correction" is pretty dang silly looking now, ain't it?

There is a reason I only partially quoted you. You graciously pointed out how the 1st amendment protects unpopular speech.

Then you go on a rant how he's ignorant. That's why I pointed out his loc.
I just thought you could have left out that last part.

Bronk

Angus · « **Reply #73 on:** August 31, 2007, 06:30:35 AM »

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Originally posted by Vudak
Well, Angus, all I can really say is you're running the risk of opening the door of unintended consequences.

I can't understand how you don't see that.

Unintended concequenses is what happened in Germany in the 30's mate.

Vudak · « **Reply #74 on:** August 31, 2007, 06:35:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Unintended concequenses is what happened in Germany in the 30's mate.

Have you ever heard of Mein Kampf? There wasn't anything unintented about it. Germans can claim what they like.

Anyway, I'm going to drop this now. We're not going to convince each other, and are probably just going to get each other upset