Neo-Nazism and Re-enactment groups...

[Angus]

Of course I have heard of Mein Kampf. I have studied the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party. The main essence was hammering propoganda into people's head while locking into the political systems. A neo-Nazi's dream.
Studied those as well, I was on a Neo-organization's mailing list once!
It's malicious propoganda at it's worst, and I do not see any loss of common freedom to ban that crap. They can go to their holes and email each other.

On the lighter side, I've been looking for a hilarious video (German) about the "problems" of neo Nazis. If I only could find it.

[Angus]

Ahhh, here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNP-D0qE5Vg

[Tachus]

Originally posted by Angus
Unintended concequenses is what happened in Germany in the 30's mate.

We know what happened, the issues is why, and how.

I don't want to comment on this to much, because quite frankly, I don't feel adequately prepared. (concerning the details of governmental structure and the overall attitude of the culture of Germany at that time in history) There are a number of questions I would ask however.

What form of government did Germany have prior to Hitler coming to power?

How did that change, if it did, after he came to power.

Could Hitler have done what he did, if there had been constitutional restraints in place? (Restrictions on power, and guarantees for certain rights and liberties)

Today would we consider Hitler's early speeches, "Hate Speech"? (This is important to consider. If we are talking about restricting speech and using the case of Hitler as grounds for this, we must know if his early speeches (during his rise to power) would have been banned. If not, then there is little support for banning "hate speech" today, with the goal of preventing a re-peat. Today for example, If someone claims that our economic woes are the result of illegal immigrants, that is not considered "hate speech", though it could still stir up animosity toward certain people groups.)

Was this a case of, the "Majority" oppressed a "Minority".

Did the culture already had a racist attitude, or was all of it generated by the Nazis? (This is important, and sometimes hard to deal with. The sad truth in this country is the KKK didn't "create" racism, it is a product of racism. As I stated I don't know about the condition of the German culture then, but I would tend to believe the same is true of the Nazis. So the question, did they "create" the problem, or were they the product of the problem.)

What other things (besides the Nazis) contributed to racism?

What would need to happen for this type of thing to occur today? (In Germany or any country for that matter)

I'm sure there are others, but those would be things I would have to research before I felt I could make any intelligent comments about the specific reasons of "Why" and "How" in Germany.


Best regards,
--Tachus

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by Angus
Of course I have heard of Mein Kampf. I have studied the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party. The main essence was hammering propoganda into people's head while locking into the political systems. A neo-Nazi's dream.
Studied those as well, I was on a Neo-organization's mailing list once!
It's malicious propoganda at it's worst, and I do not see any loss of common freedom to ban that crap. They can go to their holes and email each other.

On the lighter side, I've been looking for a hilarious video (German) about the "problems" of neo Nazis. If I only could find it.

In the US common freedom means nothing.

Here individual freedom is key.  Common freedom is just another way to opress those whose views you do not like.

Freedom can be ugly and dirty but thats the price you pay to be free.

This thread makes me sad and worried for our future. You can not hide from the past by banning speach and thoughts, and thats what your pushing,  you want the idea of nazism to die, and though I agree it has no place in the world, that is MY opionion, under the law I have no right to force that on anyone else.

That's the way it should be in a free society.

I am glad those who seem to not really understand that are not from the US.

[storch]

angus, vudak kiss and make up  

[Gh0stFT]

Originally posted by Vudak
No offense, but I've never understood how Germany can be considered a free country when freedom of speech is so limited.  

I understand your history...  But do you really not trust yourselves that much, or what?

Vudak listen, when skinheads marching in germany today, the rest of the world,
yes the U.S. too and even some from this forum are pointing fingers at us.

But if skinheads marching elswhere in the world, especialy in the U.S. its
called free-speech?

This is such a BIG BS,

my opinion? wearing and living this Nazi **** politicaly are utterly tasteless and
disrespectful to the people who survived the Nazis and are still alive.


have a nice day
Gh0stFT

[Angus]

Second that

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
Vudak listen, when skinheads marching in germany today, the rest of the world,
yes the U.S. too and even some from this forum are pointing fingers at us.

But if skinheads marching elswhere in the world, especialy in the U.S. its
called free-speech?

This is such a BIG BS,

my opinion? wearing and living this Nazi **** politicaly are utterly tasteless and
disrespectful to the people who survived the Nazis and are still alive.


have a nice day
Gh0stFT

I agree, but I still think they should be free to do it. Who doesnt know the Nazi were bad, only a moron would march as a modern Nazi. Why care?  This just makes it so they do their crap were it can be seen instead of in secret.

[Bruv119]

I watched this on BBC2 dowding.

I thought the programme was singling out people with an odd hobby at first but when it got to the last 10 minutes and the night time bit I was pretty disgusted with the views of the hardcore nutjobs.

David Irving was there so it kinda showed the type of people that would be interested in going to such an event.

If the aim of the producer was to highlight Neo-nazis / combat 18 displaying their views in broad daylight in a field in Kent then he achieved his objective.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
Vudak listen, when skinheads marching in germany today, the rest of the world,
yes the U.S. too and even some from this forum are pointing fingers at us.

But if skinheads marching elswhere in the world, especialy in the U.S. its
called free-speech?

This is such a BIG BS,

my opinion? wearing and living this Nazi **** politicaly are utterly tasteless and
disrespectful to the people who survived the Nazis and are still alive.


have a nice day
Gh0stFT

First of all, Storch, I wish they had a middle finger smiley

I was having one of those headaches earlier this morning and didn't feel like replying then, no kisses necessary

Second of all, Ghost, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone here...  But I believe that ALL human beings, no matter how much I personally despise them, are entitled to certain rights, one of the main ones being Freedom of Speech...

So, in effect, for me to be ok with denying anyone that freedom, you'd first have to dehumanize them...  And I challenge you to do this without becoming in some small way what you so detest.  If a nazi isn't a human, what is he then?  Cattle?  I trust you see the irony.

It is, I'll admit, a somewhat abstract thought that can be hard to grasp.  I can see, and understand, how some people would say, "Well how can you defend these people in any way?"

Remember the phrase attributed to Voltaire?  "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

A lot of people have died for that notion so that I have never had to empathize with Tacitus: "It is the rare fortune of these days that a man may think what he likes and say what he thinks."

That pretty much sums it up.

[Tachus]

Tacitus also said, "The desire for security, stands against every great and noble cause."

To often it seems men are willing to trade, not only their liberty, but the liberty of others for security. We talk "spending" our grandchildren's future because of our national debt. That is a trifle thing compared to sacrificing their liberty for our security.

To the issue of "rights" is should be noted, that a "Right" can NOT be given or granted by a government, it can only be TAKEN. The very nature of the term implies this.


Best regards,
--Tachus

[Angus]

Well, the liberty of anyone encouraging violent acts against people of a certain colour or origin is in my mind questionable, as well as being proved in history as ...quite brutal.
Where does the line cross. Do I have all rights I want to have. Like shooting you dead because I think you're being silly?
Where are My rights in not being harassed and spat at because of my colour or ancestory?

As for the attitude of Nazis and their liberty of promoting their propoganda:

"I agree, but I still think they should be free to do it"

This is what brought them around.




P.S. I am actually both rather blond(ish) and with blue eyes. So It's not a coloured person's heated responce FYI.

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Angus

This is what brought them around.

Once upon a time, abolitionists in America were a minority.  

Who are you to say that you should be free to express your views, but someone else shouldn't?

You might not have all the rights that you want to have, but it's important that you have the same rights as me.

[Angus]

I belive you loose less "liberty" by holding a stomping-boot on nazis than you do by letting them loose with their rount-ups and propoganda.
BTW, all the Nazi propoganda I got by mail (not e-mail, but snail-mail-prints) was direct translations of U.S. Neo-Nazi stuff. They even sent me a picture of Hitler with his birthday cake (Swastika cream dressing)
This is not about abolionism. This is about where to draw a line of HATE/IGNORANCE/BLAMING-related propoganda.
This brought us the second world war. The Nazis got stomped out, but it left a lot of dead. BTW, the Japs had similar thoughts of race.....
They got stomped slowly, while they got rooted in nicely before all hell got loose, - and the dead of the deal were mostly young guys and innocents.
Young guys of Nazi Germany (Of which I happen to know a few personally), the cream of many European a state, Millions of Jews (Which Neo-Nazis try to haggle down in the numbers), 22 MILLIONS of Russians (where areth though, Boroda), etc etc.
Anyway, from that rampaging of history, tell me Vudak:
Do you think there is any reason to try to keep Western-World Neo-Nazism at bay?
Because...it will set this debate where it belongs...maybe....

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Angus

Do you think there is any reason to try to keep Western-World Neo-Nazism at bay?
Because...it will set this debate where it belongs...maybe....

Yes, Angus, of course.  But I think the way to do that is to exercise my Freedom of Speech to speak out against their freely expressed views.

I don't think saying that I can do something (think and speak how I like), but that they can't will accomplish anything besides making me a bit more like the very people I despise.

What's next?  Should I tell them they can't drink from the same water fountains?

It all comes down to a matter of equality, Angus, but that's a very difficult concept for many people to grasp the true meaning of.