Running

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by WaRLoCkL
Well I dont balive the right thing to do would of been to turn away because we had alt advantage, the numbers were even at start and it was not my fault more came.

The orignal post was not directed towards u to begin with, and if u note that F4U was me, and i was comming strait for u the rest of the masses was climbing.

I dont see how that screenshot prooves anything other than a normal fight in MA, there was no ganging there were tons of planes on both sides. As usual.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with ya Warlock.  I never said you should do anything different.  All I was referencing was your comment about diving on 5 P38s essentially by yourself, which wasn't what happened.  You said it was our SA that got us killed.  That wasn't true either.  SA is a wonderful thing but when the numbers are overwhelming in one direction, you are gonna die sooner then later cause you can't watch everyone.  At one point in the film it's 20 Rooks fighting 5 Knits.  Rooks in Spits at 18K on down.  Hardly a normal fight.

What was different that night for me anywy, was I started Rooks and folks were absolutely determined to kill decent fights and take bases with overwhelming odds.  I was told point blank, that doing that was the correct way to play Aces High.  When we who wanted to dogfight moved, the crowd followed and the next decent fight was killed again.

So we went to the Knits and were on the recieving end of that mentality.  Overwhelming numbers with alt and E swamping bases as fast as they could.

Is that the right way to play?  Clearly some folks have fun doing that.  More power to em.  I don't enjoy it, but I'll not tell them to stop, nor will I contribute by being part of the horde.  That's my choice as It's not fun for me.

My point from the beginning is folks should fly the way they want to and not worry about what someone else thinks.  There is no right way.  The key to the AH kingdom is whether you are having fun or not.  

That is ALL that matters.  The sooner folks realize that, the better off we'll all be.

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Nutria is WindX...don't think Warlock is.


ack-ack

Ah, I didn't have a great deal of faith that he was, but they're certainly kindred spirits.

[TequilaChaser]

I don't know.........reversing at 800 yards can be suicidal for most........reversing back with 1k to 1.2k is about right most times........waiting until you are 2.0k out to turn back is just the same as resetting a fight ........

if you trying to define "reversals" or reversing you prob need to give a very thorough lecture on it......simple antedotes will cause some to be shot down alot.......

reversing back into the enemy at 800 puts you giving the opponent with a larger surface area to shoot at for the most part..........

but we all have our opinions

I am not saying I would not push for a reversal at 800, though.......but that is just me

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
rubbish! im sorry but it is.

OK.  I'm in a Jug on the deck carrying 200 IAS with a Hurri IIC also showing 200 IAS on my 6 at 800 icon range.  What type of ACM do I employ in this position???  At 1K icon range?  

Let's say we're in the TA and we reset this situation 100 times in a row.  Given the energy I have, and the geometry that exists, and an average MA pilot in a Hurri II, 99 times out of a 100 I die trying any type of maneuver other than extending out beyond "pray and spray" range.

[B@tfinkV]

point taken TC, maybe its looking through my eyes that makes reversal techs seem too simple. its not just a flat turn from 800yrds and hope they overshoot.....for me 1k-800yrds is my perfect reversal zone for any plane vs any plane, thats just me and we all develope different styles.

And Stoney, your 99/100 stat maybe true. so that would mean that the 1/100 manouver would be the one you want to concentrate on. maybe next time you will win 5/100?

lets also please remember the context of my point. you have started with advantage, blown it all, and ended up with the target now on your six. to not continue the fight now you are admiting you had everything for the taking and screwed it up so bad youre now forced to run away untill you can start holding all the cards again. my point is that having realised the other guy has outclassed you it does not teach you anything to just run and WHO KNOWS maybe you will will hit that 1/100 move first time.

remember please also that i entered to define what I (just me) considered running. I never once said that i dont ever run or that running is something to be ashamed of.

S!

[MWL]

Greetings all,

  Well, tonight, I am sober.

  I would like to thank all for their comments (with only a handful getting off topic or personal) and insights into this discussion.

  I have carefully weighed (almost spelt that wayed!) the comments and suggestions.  I have decided to the following criteria to evaluate prior to extending (or running depending on the POV of the other pilot):

1:  Did the turny bird pull a hard break turn to avoid my blazing caliber .50s of death?

2:  Is the enmy pilot gaining angles?

3:  Do I still have the speed to get away?

4:  How fast will he accelerate?

 If the answer to 1, 2 or 3 is yes, I leave.

 If the the answer to 4 is - not very, I leave, otherwise throw caution to the winds!

  So, to all you Spit, C202, C205, Hurri, P40, etc... drivers, tag me early and often cause I ain't staying around for ya.  

Regards,

[WaRLoCkL]

Originally posted by WaRLoCkL
Well I dont balive the right thing to do would of been to turn away because we had alt advantage, the numbers were even at start and it was not my fault more came.

The orignal post was not directed towards u to begin with, and if u note that F4U was me, and i was comming strait for u the rest of the masses was climbing.

I dont see how that screenshot prooves anything other than a normal fight in MA, there was no ganging there were tons of planes on both sides. As usual.

Also the only thing this proves is that I am the closest Rook to the enemy, which means I was the FIRST TO ENGAGE, I did not wait to cherry pick.

Befor u call me delusional, look at my plane and how far away it is from corky. Even in the SECOND frame I AM STILL THE CLOSEST ROOK!!! so how did i RUN!!!!!!!!!. All this screen shot really shows is a group of p38s foolishly engaing high cons without waiting for backup, that does not make me a gang tard or vulcher, makes me smart for taking a target of oppurtunity, better to kill them now, than to let them fly for a EVEN fight to end up killing more of us.

[WaRLoCkL]

Originally posted by WaRLoCkL
Also the only thing this proves is that I am the closest Rook to the enemy, which means I was the FIRST TO ENGAGE, I did not wait to cherry pick.

Befor u call me delusional, look at my plane and how far away it is from corky. Even in the SECOND frame I AM STILL THE CLOSEST ROOK!!! so how did i RUN!!!!!!!!!. All this screen shot really shows is a group of p38s foolishly engaing high cons without waiting for backup, that does not make me a gang tard or vulcher, makes me smart for taking a target of oppurtunity, better to kill them now, than to let them fly for a EVEN fight to end up killing more of us.

hmm well this did not work right, quoted the wrong post, but what i am refering to is the screenshots

[WaRLoCkL]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
point taken TC, maybe its looking through my eyes that makes reversal techs seem too simple. its not just a flat turn from 800yrds and hope they overshoot.....for me 1k-800yrds is my perfect reversal zone for any plane vs any plane, thats just me and we all develope different styles.

And Stoney, your 99/100 stat maybe true. so that would mean that the 1/100 manouver would be the one you want to concentrate on. maybe next time you will win 5/100?

lets also please remember the context of my point. you have started with advantage, blown it all, and ended up with the target now on your six. to not continue the fight now you are admiting you had everything for the taking and screwed it up so bad youre now forced to run away untill you can start holding all the cards again. my point is that having realised the other guy has outclassed you it does not teach you anything to just run and WHO KNOWS maybe you will will hit that 1/100 move first time.

remember please also that i entered to define what I (just me) considered running. I never once said that i dont ever run or that running is something to be ashamed of.

S!

Hmm so 5/100 is acceptible?? sorry i think i would extend out to about 1.5k and immelmen head on with him, dive under his fire(cause u know hes going to shoot) then loop over with the energy i have and BOOM!!!

when did we throw flying smart out the window? sorry batfink but practicing a 1/100 chance is not acceptible, but doing a manuver that would most certainly work seems more feesable.

Reason being is slow climbing 1.5 away and turning back into your enemy and diving into him will creat MORE ENERGY, and there is not much he can do but turn back the direction your ging, bleeding his energy. then a climbing loop back over to rope him and its over.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
point taken TC, maybe its looking through my eyes that makes reversal techs seem too simple. its not just a flat turn from 800yrds and hope they overshoot.....for me 1k-800yrds is my perfect reversal zone for any plane vs any plane, thats just me and we all develope different styles.

yep Bat, agreed the more we fly the shorter the distance becomes,  you, Karaya, BluKitty etc etc..would all prob reverse back at 800 but for most they would prob need more distance. When looking at it as " I revrse at 800, and force the opponent to my 12" type thinking  it seems simple. only because we have flown this situation many many times....for someone just now reading it and flying for a couple of months or more, they may find it to daunting of a task until they come in to their own...as you said we all have different flying styles.......and we did not obtain them overnight

[evenhaim]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
yep Bat, agreed the more we fly the shorter the distance becomes,  you, Karaya, BluKitty etc etc..would all prob reverse back at 800 but for most they would prob need more distance. When looking at it as " I revrse at 800, and force the opponent to my 12" type thinking  it seems simple. only because we have flown this situation many many times....for someone just now reading it and flying for a couple of months or more, they may find it to daunting of a task until they come in to their own...as you said we all have different flying styles.......and we did not obtain them overnight

Agreed we all do, when im in a spit or 109 for example, i wont wait until the openent is 800 back i will let him get closer and closer until he is 600-400 out then force and overshoot.  Its actually easier for me to start a fight with a con on my 6 , but hey thats my flying style right.

[gpwurzel]

Ok, from a real numpties point of view.....800 is too close for me to even consider reversing anyone........I wait until I'm at least 1k from them.....below that I'm scissoring, rolling, jinking etc to make sure I cant get shot.......(generally only from D400 and below tho). I rarely get people to overshoot.....but do do a good dragging now and again.......much to some peoples annoyance......on the rare occasions I've forced an overshoot.....I've enjoyed the battle to get it there, but in the MA, it makes you too much of a target.........(not complaining tho, means I have more people to shoot at )


Wurzel

[WaRLoCkL]

Originally posted by gpwurzel
Ok, from a real numpties point of view.....800 is too close for me to even consider reversing anyone........I wait until I'm at least 1k from them.....below that I'm scissoring, rolling, jinking etc to make sure I cant get shot.......(generally only from D400 and below tho). I rarely get people to overshoot.....but do do a good dragging now and again.......much to some peoples annoyance......on the rare occasions I've forced an overshoot.....I've enjoyed the battle to get it there, but in the MA, it makes you too much of a target.........(not complaining tho, means I have more people to shoot at )


Wurzel

Well never Turn back when u dont feel comfterble doing it.

Use your gut, there are alot of variables that come into play on deciding when to turn around on a bogy.

Plane u are in and Plane they are in his important.

Also the energy state and speed is just as important.

take for instance i fly the corsair, say i got a spit 600 in my six at 8k equal speed and E

If we are doing 200 Miles an hour then I am in trouble, what i would need to do is Dive until im doing about 450(bringing him into my element and therefore making me the best turner) also a spit will accelerate faster so i would draw him in closer, then i would hard break turn, force the overshoot and reverse in behind him.

However if we are on the deck doing 200 and he is 600 on me, my best option is to try to extend away, because under 250 a spit is a exellent turner and my corsair is more like a flying bath tub.

Once i extend to 1.2 or better then i will slow climb and turn around and dive in getting more speed, not saying i will win but the faster i am the better chance i have.

Learning the planes is essential to being a good dog fighter, Keeping the enemy in your element is usually going to give u success 9 times out of 10.

And remember when u are on someones six, u are most vulnurable to having something get on your six so situational awarness is key also.

[gpwurzel]

Thanks for the tips Warlock......I'm more than comfortable to turn back....(I just never stay alive very long after doing it....lol.....but its part of the learning process). I mainly fly the spit (either a 5, 8 or 9) or if bombing is the nights game....stuka or the b24....lol....so not the "uber" planes, but the planes I do fly, do give me a chance to get a kill or 2, my SA is in the lower ends lol......tho recently I have started staying alive a lot longer........which is odd as I haven't changed the way I fly or anything...lol...well, too much anyway.....as I said, its all part of the learning curve for me......as long as this game remains fun for me, I'll keep playing.....(like I have any choice, this is like internet crack or something)


Wurzel

[SteveBailey]

Honestly I dont GANG, guppy was right i did kill him twice while involved in another fight, but he was on someones six, I saved my teamaits LIFE, if thats ganging then I guess i GANG.

Warlock, you'd have less of a hard time on this board if you'd just be honest, even with yourself.  You killed some  guys that were already engaged.  This means you cherry picked them....... so what?  

 In a furball of say,  30 on 30, it would be a miracle of Godlike proportions if all planes managed to match up into convenient 1v1's. That's just not the way it works in the MA.  The naked, honest truth of it is that just about everyone in a furball is trying to "pick" an enemy.

Take a good look next time you are in a furball:  this guy is going after that guy who is trying to kill another guy who is on the six of some other guy who is tying to kill a buff who is bombing the fighter hangars of a base where a lot of guys are upping who want to shoot the other guys. Again, just about everyone in a furball is cherry picking to one degree or another.

In a furball the majority of participants get shot down by people they themselves were not directly engaging(cherry picked).

Guppy makes a good point though that you should learn so you don't insult someone without merit:  Not all people who get picked are picked because they had poor SA. There are several reasons this could happen, here's a few:

Numbers against became so great that they could do little about it as they didn't get a chance to disengage.

A recent ACM put them in a non-defensible position.

They wanted to kill the guy they were "on"

They just didn't care because the furball/fight is the fun for them and planes are free in the MA.

One of their kids fell and hurt herself and the pilot cares more for the welfare of the child than his/her cartoon plane.

Additionally,  you really should get your own skill set into perspective.  Flying around in the horde as I've so often see you do, or picking on the fringe of a fight(as has been levied against you in this thread) doesn't mean you have good SA, and no, it doesn't mean you are a "smart" pilot.  It means you are a "survivalist".  It doesn't mean you are a good cartoon pilot, nor does it mean you are a bad one.

Finally, all these declarations you make about your own talent level really don't have any credibility whatsoever.  Here's an example why:  The other day you and I, along with a couple of others, were capping a base where the fight had petered out.  as we bounced hapless uppers I remarked that I was having a rough night because I was only getting assists.  I then had to listen on range vox as you told me that you were getting the kills because you were "a great shot, an awesome shot".  Curious, I checked your hit % and found it to be less than mine. I must tell you, I'm not a great shot, not an awesome shot.  I don't even think I'm a "good shot" and you shoot a smidge less accurately than I do.