Dachau Waffen SS guard found in GA.

[Bruv119]

2nd that Dano.

Interesting thread though.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Gryphons
  In fact if you met one you would probably want to talk to him.  

I used to participate in airshows featuring WW2 aircraft and pilots. I have spoken to many Allied vets. I have had the chance to speak to Axis vets and passed on it. Didn't bother to attend their talks, either.

Am I close-minded on this? Yep.

Not one but TWO world wars; I guess I'm just not as sympathetic to those who would conquer the world as you folks are. I don't want to understand them, I don't want to commiserate with them, I don't want to honor them in any away. I want them to be seen for what they were: an abomination and an embarassment to humanity.

But hey... glorify them and understand them all you like. Forgive them, even. Perhaps someone watching will learn from that and think any behavior is fine because eventually you will be understood and forgiven. Perhaps that someone will someday try to emulate them.

I can see that in 50 years or so, Osama Bin and Mohammed Atta will be "understood" and forgiven as well. Heck, they already are in some circles.

[Toad]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I think the vast majority of people would indeed do exactly that. "Sell their soul" as you put it.

I beleive that because it is historically what people have done.

You see alot more people willing to do that then to walk away or speak out against it.
 

Perhaps it's because people see that they will eventually be forgiven for selling their soul as is evidenced in this thread.

If all refuse to delineate between good and evil, what other result could there be?

Yet it is those who can delineate that are remembered. I doubt anyone will remember Henss much beyond his 15 minutes of fame. I doubt history will ever forget Oskar Schindler.

Which one of those would you rather be?

[john9001]

Wernher von Braun built rockets with slave labor and killed many people with the rockets.

just saying.

[Toad]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I.
I love these guys that can say definitively what they would do in a given situation when they've never been there.
Like I said of the cancer before. Unless you actually HAVE been there. You dont know. I dont care what anyone says to the contrary.
You dont know.
To say otherwise is a load of crap....

....And what is war but murder on a grand scale to acheive political or social aims?

3 year kidney cancer survivor, thanks.

I have been in life/death situations in a military aircraft where my life and that of my crew depended on the decisions that I made. In places where people were eager to trip the trigger if you made a mistake.

If you are saying that you don't know if you'd choose good over evil if your choice would result in death, that's fine. Don't pretend that everyone would be the same as you, however. Clearly, not everyone is that way.

Those that are not that way are generally regarded as heroes when put to the test. Examples abound.

Who was it that said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."?

If another day of life trumps all else, there's not much to say.

[lazs2]

I have also been told that I would not survive and it never occured to me to "sell my soul".   My take is that when it is your time it is your time and that... no one gets out alive.

Course...  I never believe it when they tell me that...  I didn't believe it when they told me my leg had to come off either.  

lazs

[Angus]

Hard feelings around. One hard fact though, - WW1 was a conflict of quite complicated political issues that spread around. There was not much difference of the sides AFAIK. If you wanna pull something bad on Gerry, than it is that they were the openers of the first gas cans. (Ypres)
WW2, - you have leather booted tyrany coming it's way, first by bullying, taking powe, then murders, confiscations imprisonments and deportations.
Then you have military buildups, annexings, then invations, and when the old Tommy and Pierre had enough of it, WAR. WW2 starts as a World war with Britain and France becoming allies to the Polish against Germany.
WW2 came to the USA by Germany declairing war on the USA because of the tripact.
Lots of hard desicions to be made. Axis decided to go on the dark side. Tying their populace up by application of all methods, their control of the people was incredible, and their propoganda was such as well.
However, when it comes to the business of the camps, it becomes more interesting. You see, what was going on in there was not supposed to escape to the German public. As a back up, the public was either supportive enough to co-operate, or afraid.
So, if you look deeply into items like the Holocaust, - the whole "job" was not intended to escape to people. It almost did though! Today you have debates about it. Just a little less survivers and documents, and it would be a debateable thing! It was meant to happen in such a way that there were no survivors and no documents. A corpseless murder in a dark alley.
Then you can put your eyes to a camp like Dachau. You have all sorts of folks in the guards department. They get haired out if they break or are too soft. They get to know most about what's going on, and the superiors definately do. The prisoners do. The prisoners surviving camps like Sachsenhausen or Dachau normally do not belive that the whole German population did know indeed. (well, I don't buy that one quite).
So, back to the dog guy. I'd ask him a few questions I think. He doesn't have to be a war criminal, - and either way, his story would be worthwile to hear.

[-tronski-]

Its entirely likely that unless he was a high profile SS man, or an officer he would've been released after the war anyhow.

Its most likely he'll be deported and unless he can be linked to specific crimes other than serving in the SS, I'd leave it at that

 Tronsky

[BBBB]

Originally posted by Toad
3 year kidney cancer survivor, thanks.

I have been in life/death situations in a military aircraft where my life and that of my crew depended on the decisions that I made. In places where people were eager to trip the trigger if you made a mistake.

If you are saying that you don't know if you'd choose good over evil if your choice would result in death, that's fine. Don't pretend that everyone would be the same as you, however. Clearly, not everyone is that way.

Those that are not that way are generally regarded as heroes when put to the test. Examples abound.

Who was it that said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."?

If another day of life trumps all else, there's not much to say.

Toad you contradict yourself so often debating with you is like playing on the highway, it is stupid and pointless. In one post you claim to be this big time Christan, that you would make all the right choices and all that jive. Then you turn around and spew hate for a group of pepole, most of who had no idea what their Govt was doing and even if they did, speaking out against it meant death for them and their family.

 On a side note I am curious though, when where these "life and death" situations in a military aircraft? What branch where you/are you in? It seems to me from reading the past few posts you have made you haven't spent a day in your life in the military. You totally lack the understanding of orders and blind obedience out of fear. As US soldiers we never really have to worry about this. However a lot of Armys across the globe have troops doing what they do not want to do, this is out of fear. Fear for their own lives and fear for their families.

 You are trying to make this situation black and white. You are trying to clean it up with a simple "He is a Nazi, hand him." type of thinking. The thing is this situation is very grey. There are a lot of questions about this guy unanswered. Their are a few unsubstantiated claims made by self proclaimed, Jewish, Nazi hunters. So far with what little evidence I have saw on the matter he is guilty of nothing more than association.

 Do me a favor. Next time don't try to ride the Bible to get your message of hate across. It stinks. It shows no tact and no class on your part. Your belief in God does not make you right by default. You can't go around Bible thumping in one post, claiming you would make all the right choices in life because of God and then turn around and spew hate. Man is fallable. We all make mistakes in life. This is why got offers his everlasting forgiveness for the sins we commit on a daily basis. This guy deserves that from God and from Christians alike. Just like your message of hate deserves to be forgiven.


-Sp0t

[john9001]

geez, deport him back to germany, then he can collect his military pension.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Toad
3 year kidney cancer survivor, thanks.
I have been in life/death situations in a military aircraft where my life and that of my crew depended on the decisions that I made. In places where people were eager to trip the trigger if you made a mistake.

If you are saying that you don't know if you'd choose good over evil if your choice would result in death, that's fine. Don't pretend that everyone would be the same as you, however. Clearly, not everyone is that way.

Those that are not that way are generally regarded as heroes when put to the test. Examples abound.

Who was it that said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."?

If another day of life trumps all else, there's not much to say.

Congrats, 13 year stage 2 Hodgkins lymphoma  here
Ok and prior to your cancer did you know exactly how you would react. what you would do if you ever had it?

Being in life and death situations is not the same as being threatoned with the choice of your life or your families lives, or someone elses.

Were you told to either kill someone or have yourself or your family killed?
I doubt it.
So its not even a close comparison.

I stand by my statement. Given that particular set of circumstance.
None of us knows exactly what we would do. We all would like to think and beleive we would act in the way of good. But the bottom line is we just dont know.


Nobody knows for sure untill it happens.
Examples abound as well

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by john9001
Wernher von Braun built rockets with slave labor and killed many people with the rockets.

just saying.

Reminds me of a song

"once ze rockets go up, Who cares vere zey come down.
zats not my department. said Wernher von Braun "

LOL

[Bronk]

Originally posted by BBBB
Well unless he could tell the future his "Sworn alliagence" to Hitler was just a requirement of duty more than an oath in blood. Just like our US military requires recruits to take an oath.


-Spot

You swear an oath to defend your country and its' ideals in the US military, not to one man.

Bronk

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Bronk
You swear an oath to defend your country and its' ideals in the US military, not to one man.

Military oath is a military oath whether you swear to defend your country, your leader or your family. Overall it's the very same thing with the same end result. If there's a war you go to the war and if you don't you get in trouble.

[Dowding]

I don't consider myself a Christian, but I think I'm with Toad on this. I believe there are universal truths, maybe even laws. The Nazis broke those. In isolated cases, so did the Allies.

However, this "you don't know how you'd react in that situation, so don't be judgemental" mentality doesn't sit very well with me. Where do you draw the line? I private in SS-TK? A camp commandant? Goebbels? At which point do you stop excusing someone's actions because of the circumstances they found themselves in?

Military oath is a military oath whether you swear to defend your country, your leader or your family.

Unless you start marching into other countries and deporting large parts of their population to death camps. How are you defending your country then? This romantic idea about Teutonic military oaths is all very rosy.