Dachau Waffen SS guard found in GA.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Dowding
Unless you start marching into other countries and deporting large parts of their population to death camps. How are you defending your country then? This romantic idea about Teutonic military oaths is all very rosy.

What does it have to do with this? nothing. You go into military and you swear an oath. What they do afterwards is not up to you to decide. Just like it's not up to the enlisted US soldiers to say whether they're willing to go to Iraq or not - They're under oath.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Fishu
Military oath is a military oath whether you swear to defend your country, your leader or your family. Overall it's the very same thing with the same end result. If there's a war you go to the war and if you don't you get in trouble.

If you can't see the difference, I pity you.


Bronk

[eskimo2]

Two questions:

1. When someone joined the Waffen SS was it clear that they would be killing Jews or committing war crimes or was it viewed as we now view the difference between joining the Army, FBI, Marines or CIA?

2. What happened to members of the Waffen SS or member of other branches of Nazi Germany who objected to performing particular duties?

In my mind, if he had a reasonable out whenever he realized what was going on, and didn’t take it, he’s a war criminal.  If when he realized what was going on, he also knew that any objection on his part would lead to his certain demise, it’s hard to hold him accountable.

[bj229r]

In my mind, if he had a reasonable out whenever he realized what was going on, and didn’t take it, he’s a war criminal. If when he realized what was going on, he also knew that any objection on his part would lead to his certain demise, it’s hard to hold him accountable.

aGAIN, does this mean you would shove women and children into a ditch and shoot them, or perhaps into a gas chamber and suffocate them, or assist in doing gory experiments on them, so that you might save your own skin? I'd like to think most of us here would refuse that, irregardless of the consequences:(

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by bj229r
aGAIN, does this mean you would shove women and children into a ditch and shoot them, or perhaps into a gas chamber and suffocate them, or assist in doing gory experiments on them, so that you might save your own skin? I'd like to think most of us here would refuse that, irregardless of the consequences:(

I’d like to think that I would object either verbally or physically.  Do I think that it’s reasonable to expect all reasonable men to sacrifice their own lives to make a statement or feeble attempt to save others?  No.

In fact, many who worked in these death factories were the Jews themselves.  They knew what was going on but did what they had to in order to survive.  Objection would lead to certain death.  Clearly, no one would dream of holding them accountable.

IF, guards also believed that objection would also lead to certain death, how could we hold them accountable?  Suppose that a guard stated one day, “This isn’t right, we shouldn’t be doing this.” and then was immediately shot.  I wouldn’t blame someone for shutting up.

Things aren’t always so black and white.  This may be black or white, but I don’t think we know enough yet.

[bj229r]

Originally posted by eskimo2
I’d like to think that I would object either verbally or physically.  Do I think that it’s reasonable to expect all reasonable men to sacrifice their own lives to make a statement or feeble attempt to save others?  No.

In fact, many who worked in these death factories were the Jews themselves.  They knew what was going on but did what they had to in order to survive.  Objection would lead to certain death.  Clearly, no one would dream of holding them accountable.

IF, guards also believed that objection would also lead to certain death, how could we hold them accountable?  Suppose that a guard stated one day, “This isn’t right, we shouldn’t be doing this.” and then was immediately shot.  I wouldn’t blame someone for shutting up.

Things aren’t always so black and white.  This may be black or white, but I don’t think we know enough yet.

So...you WOULD shove women and children into a ditch and shoot them?..Yes, life IS that black and white sometimes, and yes, if one does so to save his life, he SHOULD be held accountable

[Rino]

Originally posted by Neubob
I always find it odd that on this board, it's always the Europeans and Scandinavians that find the strength to be objective in matters like these, especially when it comes to former nazis and warcrimes, and the Arab Israeli conflict in general.

Americans generally react from the gut, with anger and resolve against the Nazis/Terrorists, while our friends from across the ocean paint the German Patriot, Zionist/Muslim problem in a whole different light.

Must be the textbooks.

Friends??  I'm not surprised that Fishu finds the Nazis unobjectionable.  
After all, they were allies of Finland during the war.  The groups you
quote as being objective supported Germany as a whole during the Nazi
regime.

Your bias shines through loud and clear.

[eskimo2]

I met a German soldier once.  He told me a story about his fiancé’s family.  Her father was an engineer in a factory.  Everyone had to Join the Nazi party and pay a small fee.  He wouldn’t do it.  Hi boss pleaded with him and told him that they would make him fire him.  His boss even offered to pay his fee.  He still wouldn’t sign.
He was fired and from then on unemployable throughout the entire war.  His wife was fired from her university job and also unemployable throughout the entire war.  They lost their home.  His wife mended people’s clothes independently.  They barely made enough to eat.  That’s what happened to civilians who objected to joining the Nazi party.  I have a feeling that soldiers had an even harder time if they objected in any way.  I think that most objectors didn’t survive.

[john9001]

there is a movie clip filmed by the german army somewhere in eastern europe, it shows the soldiers lining up civilians against a wall to be shot.

one of the german soldiers refused to shoot the civilians. He is disarmed and lined up with the civilians and shot along with them.

This is fact, you can sit here and say you will do this or you will do that, but that is what happened.

[Gryphons]

bj229, you love your high horse, but the truth is that you never know how you will react in a situation until you are faced with it.  For example, many decent human beings have drowned loved ones and life guards in order to try and save their own lives. If you asked these people before hand if they would ever trade their spouses life or a strangers life to prolong their own they would have said "No, of course not" but everyone reacts differently to different types of fear and pressure.  

I like to think that I would die before "shoving women and children into ditches" but if someone is holding a gun to my Fiancé's head or if I had kids to their heads then I really can't say for sure what  I would do; and history has shown through out the centuries that man will do terrible things to protect their families.  I am thankful that I have never been put into this situation but the soldiers in Germany during WWII were.  Sometimes the world isn't as black and white as you want it to be (and yes it sucks).

[bj229r]

That would be one of the afore-mentioned  'black-and-white' situations

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by bj229r
So...you WOULD shove women and children into a ditch and shoot them?..Yes, life IS that black and white sometimes, and yes, if one does so to save his life, he SHOULD be held accountable

Read my first 12 words and STFU.

Quite frankly, just because you SAY on a BBS that you would be willing to give your life instead of committing war crimes doesn’t mean that you really would in real life.  Internet tough guy/moral elitist is just as likely if you ask me.  You really don’t know because you weren’t there.  

It really doesn’t take much of a mind to state the morally obvious.  Children go through a stage where they only view moral dilemmas in black and white.  Adults realize that a great many things are very gray.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by Rino
Friends??  I'm not surprised that Fishu finds the Nazis unobjectionable.  
After all, they were allies of Finland during the war.  The groups you
quote as being objective supported Germany as a whole during the Nazi
regime.

Your bias shines through loud and clear.

Um... have you read ANY of my subsequent posts in this thread, rino?

The mere mention of leniency and fascism in the same sentence made me red in the face. If you knew anything about my background, or me personally, you would not, could not have taken that comment as anything but patronizing towards what I believe to be a indoctrinated apologist...


Either learn to sense extreme sarcasm, or do yourself a favor and simply ignore most of what I say. Most of the members of this board who read my thoughts have no problem with this. I'm sorry that you do.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by eskimo2


In fact, many who worked in these death factories were the Jews themselves.  They knew what was going on but did what they had to in order to survive.  Objection would lead to certain death.  Clearly, no one would dream of holding them accountable.

Jewish Kapos that were found guilty of war crimes were prosecuted and executed for their actions.  


ack-ack

[bj229r]

Adults realize that a great many things are very gray

Not a damn thing gray about it. Two hard, cold choices--shove women and children out of the lifeboat, or get out yourself. Hopefully it will never happen again