Dachau Waffen SS guard found in GA.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Neubob
Well if he said so, it must be true.

The point being that the nazi hunters doesn't have any better against him either. They keep generalizing the situation to emotionally affect the people reading news. He was a dog holder and they go on about the dogs tearing people apart... but we don't know did he do that.

[evenhaim]

Originally posted by RAIDER14
:confused:I'm not wes

my bad i saw the 14 and thought wes

[Fishu]

Originally posted by evenhaim
Bob you do not know HOW MUCH I AGREE WITH YOU , that bs statement has been spewed by every war criminal ever.

How would you defend yourself if someone would come to accuse you of things you didn't do? They got a paper proving you were there at the time of the crime, but they don't have anything to prove you as the criminal. In the media they keep sharing their view of the case and while speaking of horrifying things that were done at the crime scene they keep constantly mentioning your name. You'd be definitely guilty in the eyes of the general public until proven not guilty; Even then you'd be viewed as nothing more than an another O.J Simpson - a person who got away with a crime.

We don't know which side here is speaking the truth. The nazi hunters are extremely biased and as merciless as the nazis were. The other side is a person who might been or might not been a war criminal. The nazi hunters couldn't care less of what he did now that they've found out he's been for a short while at a concentration camp and lives at their backyard.

The justice is (should be) blind.

[Toad]

He hid his wartime activities when he moved to the United States in 1955, the Justice Department said, making him eligible for deportation now. A date for a deportation hearing has not yet been set.

Well, I'm sure that Paul Henss was really a better man than Oskar Schindler and so should be honored for his SS service. Who knows how many concentration camp inmates he really saved? Bless him.

But... he still lied to get into the US which is punishable by deportation.

End of story.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by Fishu
The point being that the nazi hunters doesn't have any better against him either. They keep generalizing the situation to emotionally affect the people reading news. He was a dog holder and they go on about the dogs tearing people apart... but we don't know did he do that.

I guess you just really want him to be innocent, where as I just really want everyone who remains guilty to pay and pay dearly.

The two viewpoints don't necessarily need to be incompatible, but often are.

He's had a good long life since 1945--which is much more than a vast majority of the thousands that were shuffled into the facility where this man either did or did not participate in systematic torture and extermination of fellow Germans as well as kidnapped foreign nationals.

When I see his face now, I see their past misery, not his current misery. And the fact that he has escaped justice--be it simply for fear of an impartial jury--does not make his case a sympathetic one in my eyes.

Had his hunters been 1/10 as thorough and ruthless as his employers, this man wouldn't have lived to grow his first gray hair.

[evenhaim]

Originally posted by Neubob
I guess you just really want him to be innocent, where as I just really want everyone who remains guilty to pay and pay dearly.

The two viewpoints don't necessarily need to be incompatible, but often are.

He's had a good long life since 1945--which is much more than a vast majority of the thousands that were shuffled into the facility where this man either did or did not participate in systematic torture and extermination of fellow Germans as well as kidnapped foreign nationals.

When I see his face now, I see their past misery, not his current misery. And the fact that he has escaped justice--be it simply for fear of an impartial jury--does not make his case a sympathetic one in my eyes.

Had his hunters been 1/10 as thorough and ruthless as his employers, this man wouldn't have lived to grow his first gray hair.

Bravo well said toad and neubob

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Toad
But... he still lied to get into the US which is punishable by deportation.

As sad as it can be after all the years, if he's innocent (if he's guilty of war crimes then it isn't that sad at all), that is the case and he could be deported. That is the law and he most likely knew they don't accept people into the USA who were involved in the nazi regime.

[Gryphons]

As another poster said I'd like to see the forums he had to fill out upon entering the country in 1955 before I decided weather or not he actually "hid" his service record.  None of the articles I've read have given enough evidence that he hid his service record.  Tho if it turns out he did than it's a different story.

And for the record I'm not anti-semitic, nor do I support any of the atrocities committed during the holocaust.

[evenhaim]

Originally posted by Gryphons
As another poster said I'd like to see the forums he had to fill out upon entering the country in 1955 before I decided weather or not he actually "hid" his service record.  None of the articles I've read have given enough evidence that he hid his service record.  Tho if it turns out he did than it's a different story.

And for the record I'm not anti-semitic, nor do I support any of the atrocities committed during the holocaust.

no one siad you were poeple have different opinions thats whats great about the oclub

[Toad]

From 1942 to 1944 Henss served as a guard at the Dachau and Buchenwald concentration camps, where he instructed other guards in the use of trained attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape, authorities said.

He hid his wartime activities when he moved to the United States in 1955, the Justice Department said, making him eligible for deportation now. A date for a deportation hearing has not yet been set.

Of course, the Justice Department could just be making it all up. Maybe he wrote a book about training dogs to assist in mass murder and gave it to his original immigration officer. That's gotta be where this slip-up started.

From another site about these deportations:

They entered the United States illegally after the World War II -- illegally, because they claimed on their immigration forms that they were not collaborators with the Nazi regime during the war.  

It would seem logical to me that there was at least one question about what they did in the war on the form.

So if they produce this 60 year old form and it shows he lied.... how will you all excuse it then? Because I am certain you apologists will defend this man forever.

Yuck.

[culero]

Originally posted by Neubob
Let him stay free, do nothing about it.

If the Israelis get him, they get him.

NS

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Neubob
I guess you just really want him to be innocent, where as I just really want everyone who remains guilty to pay and pay dearly.

I'd rather have more solid proof than just anecdoctal evidence and mass hysteria to judge the man. I'm tired of hearing generalizations of the SS men. It's a magic word that somehow makes everyone evil who were involved with it. People thinks the SS is the same and only thing, when in fact majority were normal soldiers who had as much to do with war crimes as a typical john doe of the US army.

There was a finnish Waffen-SS unit fightning against the russians at the frontline like any other finnish soldier in the finnish army. I'm tired of those who are disrespectful towards these men who fought for their country even if under different uniform. The disrespectful people do not see beyond the "SS", that's all they need and they react to it emotionally without a hint of rational thought. They were one part of the Waffen-SS, not an exception.

It was a war and we can't punish everyone who's done something morally or legally wrong. We, finns, tried that after a civil war, but it didn't turn out to be such a good idea; Executing all the reds wouldn't have been in the best interest of anyone.

Efforts must be concentrated against those who were war criminals with a possibility to choose otherwise and continued to commit war crimes. Otherwise we can just as well hunt down all the german soldiers who fought at the eastern front, because they most likely at some point were involved in a war crime either directly or indirectly (ie. their platoon killed a group of surrendered soldiers).

He's had a good long life since 1945--which is much more than a vast majority of the thousands that were shuffled into the facility where this man either did or did not participate in systematic torture and extermination of fellow Germans as well as kidnapped foreign nationals.

when I see his face now, I see their past misery, not his current misery. And the fact that he has escaped justice--be it simply for fear of an impartial jury--does not make his case a sympathetic one in my eyes.

The deaths are very saddening indeed. Thousands of albanians were murdered, but waste majority of the serbians involved in it are never going to be prosecuted for those deaths, even if some of them shot a couple themselves. The attention is on the officers and leaders who were ultimately responsible for giving the orders. Many of those who will certainly never going to be prosecuted for participating in the serbian attrocities are going to live a comfortable life, unlike the dead albanians and relatives who lost one of their own.

It's probably better this way than the alternative.

Had his hunters been 1/10 as thorough and ruthless as his employers, this man wouldn't have lived to grow his first gray hair.

They would have been had they not located him from the USA.


All in all, war is a dirty business and there's no good guys out there. It's a matter of who steps beyond the line.

[Gryphons]

Hmmm, interesting Toad.  But the way you make it sound the pilots who flew for the Luftwaffe are Nazi collaborators, yet the pilots are famous, many have had books published and are available for purchase in the U.S.  In fact if you met one you would probably want to talk to him.  Yet you want to condemn this man who trained dogs for the Nazi party.  Training of attack dogs is standard practice in all armies.  And how do you know that this man has not felt a great deal of remorse for what happened in the war. He has had over 60 years to think about it.  Did you even consider the fact that maybe he wanted out of Germany because of the horrible memories he must have.  Then again he may have left because he was scared of being convicted for war crimes.  All I'm saying is that I'm not going to base my judgments on the man based on some internet articles.  But you have the right to form your own opinions.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Toad
And you think that is the worst thing that could happen to a person?

You think that prolonging your life is worth voluntary participation in the worst sort of atrocities?

You'd sell your soul for another day? Would you kill your mother in cold blood at the government's order for just one more day of life? Your neighbor? A stranger on the street? A thousand strangers on the street?

Is that what you're saying when you are just saying?

To answer your question honestly for me I dont know.
I'd actually have ot be in that situation to find out. As would you.
Since your still here I can only imagine that you;'ve never had a gun to you or your families  head to do it or die so..

My mother or family probably not. And again I think most people would be the same way when it came to their immediate family
 Neighbor? Stranger on the street?
I think the vast majority of people would indeed do exactly that. "Sell their soul" as you put it.

I beleive that because it is historically what people have done.

You see alot more people willing to do that then to walk away or speak out against it.

One just needs to look at places like Nazi Germany,
Iraq under the Saddam Regeim.
Soviet Union.

Or we can look even to our own streets of NYC, LA or any of a dozen places to where where there have been plenty of incidents where  people would rather say nothing then get involved to stop it.

Historically people will do anything to save their own neck. Even if only for a day.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Toad
I love these guys saying that it's just impossible for the average guy to decide if mass murdering thousands of civilians in gas chambers and burning their bodies in crematories is good or bad.

It's such a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

Killing tens of thousands of people.... good or bad and who are you to decide anyway, bud? On the next Jerry Springer!

I also note that none of you seem to be able to decide if you would participate in the very worst of atrocities to prolong your own life.

Says quite a bit, I think, of the (lack of) moral fiber in the US today.

I think our fathers and grandfathers that fought that war would be ashamed if they read this thread. And probably angry.

I think we all know its bad.
I havent seen a single person say otherwise.
And Nobody can decide if they would or not because they have never been in that situation.
Nor have you.
I love these guys that can say definitively what they would do in a given situation when they've never been there.
Like I said of the cancer before. Unless you actually HAVE been there. You dont know. I dont care what anyone says to the contrary.
You dont know.
To say otherwise is a load of crap.

We all like to beleive that we know. We all would like to beleive that the best of humanity would come out in all of us.
But the barebones truth is untill we are in a situation. We dont know.
And survival is a powerful insinct.
We , as a species tend to cling to it even if it is at the expence of others.
When faced with possible death. The instinct is to live at all costs.
Even if it means others must die.

Most people well before they are 12-13 are conditioned by their parents to beleive that killing is wrong.
Still hasnt quite stopped all the killing though has it?

Our own military tends to be able to retrain soldiers minds to they can kill, on orders.
And what is war but murder on a grand scale to acheive political or social aims?