October 4th 1957

[Boroda]

Watching a 1972 movie called "Taming Fire". About Korolyov. http://imdb.com/title/tt0069434/

Kurchatov speaks. "Science have turned into an instrument of blackmailing. Look how far they have got. Do you still think they will mind moral?"...

If only I had Russian subtitles for this film - I'd spend some time translating it to English. You guys probably don't understand what huge layer of human culture you miss.

[Angus]

"I am sure that 95% of people on this board will prefer Soviet society to anything else.

In the 5% left I see people like Lazs. In total population count I think 99% is a better estimation.
"


Huh?

So that's just going to leave Lazs and me No, just a minute. WHO ON THIS BOARD WOULD PREFER SOVIET SOCIETY TO ANYTHING ELSE???

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Boroda
At the same time Imperial government had a contract with American weapon factories for a million (!!!) rifles. They failed. I mean - not only failed to make a decent rifle designed in Russia (meaning it can be made in any bed-factory). They also got pre-payed and failed to produce it in ordered quantities. More to say: they got almost ruined, and were seriously thinking of selling themselves to Russian Military Ministry for debts.

The Russian Contract

Remington and Westinghouse Mosin Nagants were originally part of a contract with Imperial Russia for up to 1,500,000 rifles from Remington and 1,800,000 rifles from New England Westinghouse. The contract with Remington was dated November 3, 1916. Remington received a down payment of $7,500,000 from Russia with manufacture of rifles starting shortly after. In total there were only 769,520 New England Westinghouse rifles built and 750,000 Remington rifles built. Of the 750,000 Mosin-Nagant rifles manufactured by Remington, only 469,951 had been delivered to Russia by February 1917. In March of 1917, Nicholas II was forced to abdicate and the Provisional Kerensky Government took power. Remington and Westinghouse continued to build rifles during this time. Remington alone produced as many as 4000 rifles per day during November of 1917. The Kerensky government continued to accept deliveries from Remington and Westinghouse.

U.S. Army Training and National Guard Rifles

When Bolsheviks took power the U.S. contracts were cancelled. Remington and New England Westinghouse faced a terrible economic loss from both Russia defaulting on the balance of the weapons and because of the United States canceling the contracts due to not wanting to deliver weapons to the Bolsheviks. To save Rem-UMC and New England Westinghouse from bankruptcy the U.S. government purchase the most of the remaining, completed rifles at approximately $32 each. The majority of rifles purchased by the US were New England Westinghouse rifles. Most were used for military training purposes was given a temporary U.S. designation The U.S. Magazine Rifle calibre 7.62mm Model of 1916. The US made use of the American made M91s to train new Army recruits. US surcharged rifles were kept in the United States for SATC and other troop training; both the Colorado and the Alaska National Guard, to name a few, had to turn in their US rifles and were instead issued Mosins. Rifles were proofed and surcharged at a couple of US arsenals, many of them at Benicia Arsenal. Although most Mosin Nagant rifles that remained in the country were not surcharged but were given to the NRA after the war ended. Most were brand new when sold off by the NRA at $3.90 + $1.58 postage. The NRA was sold out of U.S. Mosins by 1929.

http://www.texastradingpost.com/militaria/usmosin.html

Nice twist to the truth Boroda.

[lazs2]

angus..  boroda is delusional about 95% wanting to live under soviet rule..  it is the bitterness and vodka talking... he is able to ignore in his mind the fact that they had to build walls to keep people in... he is stuck on the old commie line that "communism can work.. it just hasn't been done right yet"

It can't be done right.   The whole idea goes against human nature (well... not against womans nature).

He does have a point tho.. you and I are very different.. you want a nanny... you also don't want quite as much as boroda thinks you want but... you, and maybe 95% of the people (he is correct I think on the numbers) do want a lot more socialism than really free people should.

You are more willing to trade security for freedom than the individualists here but not quite so far gone yet as boroda believes..  

And why not?  he has never felt real freedom.  he has nothing to judge.. he sees his blizzards through the bottoms of vodka bottles.. all is grime and missery around him...  He thinks that because all drive has been beaten out of the people around him that... it is a natural state.

lazs

[Angus]

Well, while I am not as right winged as you are Lazs, I am far away from Boroda.
The commie regime was IMHO too much against human nature, - you needed a "new" human for it to work.
As for the "nanny" part, you'd be surprized to see how little freedom you need to sacrifice for a lot of security. And security in big steps is a kind of freedom.....

The commies had one thing good though. (apart from some interesting hardware etc). And that was crime control. The USSR of post-Stalin was not a totally bad place in many cases..........

(Now you're going to call me Boroda )

[Charon]

Remington and Westinghouse Mosin Nagants

Those are fine rifles that are much sought after by collectors. No better or worse than the Izhevsk 91/30 I have in the safe today. As pointed out, the only failure was that of payment and it dammed near bankrupted the US companies.

As an aside, a number of surplus Westinghouse and Remington 91/30 were bought by Bannerman (a famous military surplus dealer of the time) and converted to 30.06. These are potentially dangerous, but only because of the conversion process. The .06 cartridge is much longer, and in reaming out the chamber it is likely that thinner parts of the barrel are now supporting the cartridge.

One of the commercial sales was to Bannerman’s, the great New York City military surplus house, which had the guns converted to fire the common .30-06 round; the rifles have the new caliber stamped on their actions. These guns can still be found but should NOT be fired: the conversions were not done to modern safety standards and these rifles are considered dangerous to shoot. Though interesting as collector’s items, they should be deactivated by removing the firing pin, or clipping the end off the firing pin, or by any other means to ensure that they cannot be fired by accident or design.
http://www.mosinnagant.net/USSR/US-Mosin-Nagants.asp

Charon

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Angus
The commies had one thing good though. (apart from some interesting hardware etc). And that was crime control. The USSR of post-Stalin was not a totally bad place in many cases..........

The last prisoners the Gulag system sentenced according the political paragraphs of the criminal code were quietly released in 1989.  

1989 - 1952 = 37 years post Stalin

[Angus]

Ah, forgot those "islands" However, life for a devoted commie wouldn't have to be that bad, while the life for a suspected commie in the USA in the times of McCarthy would not be too good. No Gulag though.

BTW, recently "visited" the former STASI hq in Dresden.
It was a house belonging to the great-granparents of my wife. A house in a nice neighbourhood, sited in the slopes above the Elbe, facing the core of Dresden.
Anyway, a whole row of houses (5 or so) belonged to the Stasi, with the USSR service (Putin they said) on the other side of the street.
The houses had been connected with a network of tunnels, so that basically Stasi personnel never walked the streets much on errands.
They were well fenced off with double fences and dogs between them. The barbed wire tilted INWARDS though!
There were movement sensors and floodlights, and the slope down to the Elbe (It's some piece of land) is covered with thorned scrub, - You will do some shredding if you try crossing there.
After the wall fell, and Stasi went under, the house has been abandoned. However, the awe was such that it was untouched for some 10 years. It now belongs to the former owners.
Imagine, all that Stasi stuff just in that city. Incredible!

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Angus
Ah, forgot those "islands" However, life for a devoted commie wouldn't have to be that bad, while the life for a suspected commie in the USA in the times of McCarthy would not be too good. No Gulag though.

"As long as you agree with me, you won't die in prison" balanced against  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. "

[Angus]

Well, the spirit of the McCatrthy's days were a tad more rough than that. "Suspected commie" position could give you a load of trouble. But not a slavecamp ticket