Author Topic: Glacier Girl  (Read 2965 times)

Offline RATTFINK

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2007, 12:47:42 PM »
Sent.


Here is his e-mail address mrp38@wwgap.net
Hitting trees since tour 78

Offline RATTFINK

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2007, 02:12:53 PM »
Another reply from Bob


Quote
My last comment on the matter, the panel on the side of GG said P-38E. Not F. That is why it says that today.

I agree it now is a P-38F-1LO but when we recovered and restored her we put exactly the same stencils back on her as when we got her.

I can't offer any more that that. I have 1st hand personal knowlege of what the stencil said, so I am positive it is 100 per cent accurate.. Why it was that way, I can only wonder.

Bob
Hitting trees since tour 78

Offline Widewing

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2007, 03:11:37 PM »
Well, at least he admits that the plane was a P-38F-1-LO, but he uses the term, "now". A number of P-38Es were upgraded with newer radios and the P-38F-1-LO fuel system. However, all of these were shipped off for duty in Alaska. A few RP-38Es (the redesignation of the P-38E) were sent to Britain by ship. None were assigned to the Bolero mission. 41-7630 was not a conversion, but a P-38F-1-LO from the day its construction began on the Lockheed line.

As to having a stencil saying P-38E, I don't doubt his word. I did some digging on this today. The first ten P-38J-1-LOs were stenciled with P-38H. Both types were delivered to contract AC-21217. Since both P-38Es and P-38Fs were delivered to contract AC-15646, F models may have been erroneously stenciled with P-38E. It was probably a contract requirement to stencil the type on the side, and if the original contract language said P-38E, that's what they would stencil, right or wrong. Government inspectors would reject any aircraft not meeting the exact language of the contract.

Let me give you an example of this same mentality. My company manufactures a critical component for the Mk48 ADCAP torpedo. The original part number was 4266-1-00 Revision A. Over the years, the part was improved several times and the revision level is now Revision G. However, because the original contract calls for Revision A, the data plate says Revision A. All engineering and Navy drawings say Revision G. If we put G on the data plate, the government inspector would reject the units. The Navy knows that they are getting Revision G, they approved all upgrades. Nonetheless, the contract was never changed. I hope you can appreciate the convoluted and often obtuse logic of the government.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline RATTFINK

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2007, 04:16:13 PM »
I hear ya =WW=.


I'm used to the revision process :)

You are one of the most knowledgeable guys I know and you do your research.

<>
Hitting trees since tour 78

Offline Widewing

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2007, 09:48:10 AM »
This topic was stuck in my craw and I did some additional research in my spare time. What I uncovered supports the theory I proposed in the thread. So, I sent an e-mail to Bob Cardin, giving him what I had and providing him with what he needs to answer questions about why Glacier Girl is stenciled as a P-38E. Here's the letter I sent...

"Good day Mr. Cardin,

Recently, there was a discussion on the Aces High Bulletin Board about Glacier Girl and why she bears a stencil that says P-38E. Some research shows that this particular serial number comes from a lot of early P-38Fs. Nonetheless, when you recovered the Lightning, it was stenciled as a P-38E. This discussion caused me to put on my historian's hat and start digging into the past.

First, I contacted an old timer who began flying P-38s in early 1942. I asked if he had ever seen P-38s stenciled differently than the actual model number. He said that he had. In fact, he had seen a P-38F marked exactly as was Glacier Girl. This fellow was an instructor at a P-38 RTU squadron. He logged time in the E, F, G, H and J models. He reported that he had seen a brand new P-38J-1-LO that was stenciled as a P-38H. He didn't know why this was done, but he certainly confirms that it was done. I began to formulate a theory on why this was done.

So, what next? I sent out several e-mails to other old timers who worked at Lockheed in the early years of P-38 production. One guy gave me the name and phone number of Lester W. Blount, who worked in the Engineering Dept from 1941 through 1947. Lester is 88 years old now and is in failing health.

Lester confirmed my theory, and even though his memory is far less than perfect, he did recall that aircraft were marked according to contract requirements. Glacier Girl was built under the same contract as all of the P-38Es. Marking requirements are defined by the contract. This contract was expanded several times, but the language never revised. Thus, all the aircraft must be marked in accordance to the requirements detailed within that document. Therefore, it appears that the P-38E stencil was applied to all of the P-38F, P-38F-1-LO, F-4-1-LO and F-4A-1-LO aircraft delivered  to that contract. Log books were "marked-up" to change the P-38E to whatever version was actually built under contract AC-15646. Since the F-4s were essentially rebuilt from E and F models, they were re-stenciled upon completion of the rework. The P-38Fs were not re-stenciled as the upgrades they received prior to Bolero were minor in comparison.

So, if anyone should question you in the future as to why Glacier Girl is stenciled as a P-38E, you can state that not only was this how you found her, but explain why she was marked that way originally."
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Guppy35

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2007, 11:03:01 AM »
Great stuff Widewing.  Thanks for sharing that.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline DmdJJ

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2007, 03:34:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing

So, if anyone should question you in the future as to why Glacier Girl is stenciled as a P-38E, you can state that not only was thishow you found her  , but explain why she was marked that way originally."


Not getting on you WW with this quote, I just want to make a point.
Pat Epps and Richard Taylor were the two men that made this P-38 come out of the ice. Those two spent millions finding and recovering it. Bob Cardin did not spend any of his money that I know of. He worked for the GES(The Greenland Expedition Society). Then he kissed Schoffners butt so he could keep a paycheck. Roy Schoffner only came along in '92 with needed money, but yet gets most of the credit. The GES new it was an "F" model from the start so why this has been disputed here is just dang funny.
I just wish that Pat had let us rebuild it in his own shop. It wouldnt have taken us 10 years of milking the cow to finish it as Cardin did.
One of the greatest memories was Pat Epps giving me a one on one tour with the P-38 after it was pulled out of the ice. It was great crawing all over a piece of history and seeing it first hand.
If any one who reads these boards has the chance to meet Pat Epps or Richard Taylor, thank them, and give them the credit they deserve.
DmdJJ   
"The Damned"
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FSO Squad 412th FNVG
Target Rebaul-----> VMF-214   Fjord Fury RAF----> 315 Squadron

Offline Widewing

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2007, 04:24:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DmdJJ
Not getting on you WW with this quote, I just want to make a point.


Point well taken here. Good to know the facts. Thanks.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2007, 06:29:14 PM »
Mr. Roy should get the credit he gets. The job that needed to be done required money, and Mr. Roy supplied it. And Cardin did a great job managing the award winning restoration. Cardin never claimed to have spent his money on it, he never claimed to have any money. You can say whatever you want about Bob Cardin and Mr. Roy, but they got the job done when no one else could or did. And few people were nicer, or treated people better.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline DmdJJ

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Glacier Girl
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2007, 11:00:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You can say whatever you want about Bob Cardin and Mr. Roy, but they got the job done when no one else could or did. And few people were nicer, or treated people better.

Go ahead and believe the smoke those two blew up your ***. Epps and Taylor spent over 10 years looking for the aircraft. Taylor lost his business, and Epps almost did. Shoffner came around like a vultcher in the last year as a sponsor(1992) then proceded with law suits and took the bird away from them. Real class act.
This is the last from me about this. I was there(not greenland) but knew and worked for Pat Epps and family during this time. Nuff said.
DmdJJ   
"The Damned"
"Damned if we do, no fun if we don't"
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
Target Rebaul-----> VMF-214   Fjord Fury RAF----> 315 Squadron