It's Like the Hydra

[Tigeress]

Hi Maverick,

All very good questions, imho.

I find this a bit confusing. You make a statement that "we" are losing and going about this all in the wrong way, a way that makes the enemy stronger. You also say you have no idea how better to do the job and win. Since you have no better idea or strategy, how are you so certain that the means being used is so wrong?

We meaning non-Muslims. We are losing the "War on Terrorism", imho.

If we all become Muslim, no more terrorist attacks. I don't see that as a solution. I dont have a real solution and said so before.

They keep growing stronger, from everything I see and read.
If what we are presently doing is the right solution they would be getting weaker... I don't see that.

If you have no other option other than total capitulation, which you yourself do not want to do, what do you think is so wrong?

What I think is wrong is terrorism and The denial of freedom of religion imposed by a powerful world wide religion, under penalty of death which they are carrying out day and night... like the Borg of Star Trek.

You don't have any options other than to complain because the situation you can't comprehend isn't over at this time, without having a clue as to how it should be done or long the thing should go.

We have the option to jointly discuss the problem... to brain tank... world wide... on the problem... and derive a solution jointly as the other 4.2 billion inhabitants on the earth. Unilateral action seems to not be working.

By what rationale do you assume everything is wrong if you have no idea what is a right way to solve a problem?

I don't assume "everything is wrong". I am not sure what you mean by that. The non-Muslim population of the world has a terrorist threat fueled by a religion and carried out by solders of God.

What makes it wrong to you?

I don't want to be forced to become Muslim nor do I want to die nor do I want others to die... not even Muslims.

I view all Mulsims to be victims of the Quran.

What would make a strategy right to you?

I don't know; lets discuss it.

How would you recognise it?

It would bring peace.

How long should the conflict last and or with how many casualties before you end it?

The cause of the conflict would have to be eliminated. To change the Quran has never been done. How long would that take? I don't know.
Is ther another solution? I don't know.

How will you know when the conflict is over?

When Islamic Religion delcares to all Islamists that people who are non-believers, edit: and People of The Book, are permitted by Islam to exist peacefully without converting to Islam.

Just so you know...

I was engaged to be married to a man who is Muslim... a Sufi and seriously studied the Quran and was instructed by him on Islam.

I am very far from any kind of an expert on Islam but I learned enough for me to walk away from him and his religion.

And to be very very afraid of the power of faith in Islam.

TIGERESS

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Tigeress
When Islamic Religion delcares to all Islamists that people who are non-believers, i.e. People of The Book, are permitted by Islam to exist peacefully without converting to Islam.

TIGERESS

"People of the book" are not non-believers. They are Jews and Christians. Perhaps this is what you meant?

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by AKIron
"People of the book" are not non-believers. They are Jews and Christians. Perhaps this is what you meant?

mmmm... yes. But Muslims are taught People of The Book are non-believers in Islam... sorta like the Catholic view on Protestants... whom Catholics are taught will go to hell because they are not Catholics.

 Nothing new in that... most sects of Christanity have that view.

The USA is viewed as Satan The Devil by Islamic extremists.

The Christian Holy Bible does not demand that those who are not Christian shall be converted or they are to be put to death.

Listen, I don't want anyone killed... Muslim or non-Muslim.

This whole religous mandate thing is insane in my view... its Middle Ages thinking, in my view, not 21-Century thinking... not Freedom of (or from)  Religion thinking.

TIGERESS

edit: I made an edit to my prior post re: People Of The Book, to clarify.

[AKIron]

Well, just wanted to be sure that you understood that Muslims view "people of the book" quite differently than someone who does not believe in the God of Abraham.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by AKIron
Well, just wanted to be sure that you understood that Muslims view "people of the book" quite differently than someone who does not believe in the God of Abraham.

 Oh yeah... I do  understand the meaning... I have also had close relationships with Jewish men and Christian men.

Thanks, dear.

I love everyone... regardless of their faith, including people who are Muslims... this "convert or die thing" is insane though, in my view, and people are dying on all sides as a result and it appears to be gaining momentum.

The Hydra just keeps multiplying heads.

TIGERESS

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Tigeress
Oh yeah... I do  understand the meaning... I have also had close relationships with Jewish men and Christian men.

Thanks, dear.

I love everyone... regardless of their faith, including people who are Muslims... this "convert or die thing" is insane though, in my view, and people are dying on all sides as a result and it appears to be gaining momentum.

The Hydra just keeps multiplying heads.

TIGERESS

Of course this dying did not start with the invasion of Kuwait, the bombing of the WTC, or even the reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1947. It started many centuries before those.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by AKIron
Of course this dying did not start with the invasion of Kuwait, the bombing of the WTC, or even the reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1947. It started many centuries before those.

Quite so... it started with Mohammad the so-called Messenger of God who was born in the desert of Arabia according to Muslim historians, on April 20, 571.

Mohammad was a very interesting man... it was against Islam the Crusades of the Middle Ages were waged.

Islam is still here; the Christian Crusaders lost.

This all has deep and interesting history.

911 is yet a chapter in the history of Islam, in my opinion.

TIGERESS

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Tigeress
Quite so... it started with Mohammad the so-called Messenger of God who was born in the desert of Arabia according to Muslim historians, on April 20, 571.

Mohammad was a very interesting man... it was against Islam the Crusades of the Middle Ages were waged.

Islam is still here; the Christian Crusaders lost.

This all has deep and interesting history.

TIGERESS

Some would argue that it started long before that with the birth of Ishmael.

Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” And the Angel of the Lord said to her: “Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction. He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”

[Tigeress]

Prehaps so... I was meaning to say Islam and the Quran started with Mohammad, the author of the Quran.

TIGERESS

[Maverick]

Tigress,

You misinterpreted my entire post. I was not asking any of those questions from the point of view of a muslim or arab. I have no concern at all for their point of view, I am diametrically opposed to it.

Those questions were directed specifically to you from the post that you started this thread with. You were saying OUR as in western  or specifically US confrontation with muslims is being done incorrectly so what is your idea and how are you so sure it's wrong if you have absolutely no idea of a different way to do it.

If your whole point is that you just don't like it, you are being just as clueless as kerry was last election. His platform was bush screwed it up but he, kerry would "do it better". He had no indication of anything he would do differently. His bit about getting other nations involved is fantasy as they have no intention of being involved as long as the US is willing to do their fighting for them. Those other nations already said they would not help so dialogue with them is a non starter.

Like I said before, if YOU have no idea how to do this differently how can you say it's being done "wrong"?

Oh and getting the muslims to change the quran, yeah THAT will be workable.  Those nutters blow people up over a freaking cartoon for crying out loud. You want to tell them their religion sucks and rewrite it?!?!?!?!   What do you think they would say to that?


One other comment, I've found many protestants who think catholics will go to hell as they aren't even christians. Some have even made statements similar to that here on the board. Now where do you think they got that idea from?

[john9001]

the next Crusade will not be fought with horses and swords, it will be fought with smart bombs.

[Tigeress]

Hi Maverick,

Those questions were directed specifically to you from the post that you started this thread with. You were saying OUR as in western  or specifically US confrontation with muslims is being done incorrectly so what is your idea and how are you so sure it's wrong if you have absolutely no idea of a different way to do it.

The USA started a war on terrorism, yes?

Are we winning that war? and if so, how can you tell?

If I have any political bias it's just to the right of center.

I based my opinions that we are loosing that war based on the continued expansion of Islamist Terrorism world wide from reading the news papers and observing current events.

Listen, if you think bombing and shooting Islamist Terrorists is not playing into their hands just go ask them.

I wish to God that what the US is doing would work. I am not against tactics that actually get the job done.

I say nuke 'em if that puts an end to it.

I seriously do not believe that would work and instead would backfire.

PLEASE GO READ THIS!

Know Thy Enemy

Please note... I am a Moderate... that means I pick on everybody hahahaha

I wouldn't let that Kerry guy change a light bulb but I thought Reagan was cool... and also John Kennedy.

I like for people to just get the dang job done.

Geo. W. Bush & Co has had a lot of time... and I see the situation as being worse than ever. Others see things through their own view of the world.

I also think ceasing hostilities is just as bad. We are stuck in a "Catch 22", in my view.

TIGERESS

[AKIron]

Originally posted by john9001
the next Crusade will not be fought with horses and swords, it will be fought with smart bombs.

and some not so smart bombs

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by john9001
the next Crusade will not be fought with horses and swords, it will be fought with smart bombs.

I totally agree.

We can't stop shooting and shooting them makes them stronger.

That is why I said its like the Hydra and it scares the dickens out of me.

TIGERESS

[Maverick]

Well Tigress I guess you had better pick out your burkha and prayer rug then, you've given up. No ideas and just a complaint that "it's" being done wrong.

Seems to me that there wasn't much of a "war on terrorism" until after the 2 attacks on the WTC. Even given the Marine barracks blast didn't do much to start a war. Since it didn't start until after the last attack on the WTC was successful I don't understand why you think "we" started it.

FWIW I don't mind a bit that folks criticise the govt. or even the war going on. It's the criticism with no ideas about how to do it differently that gets to me. If you can't think of anything else to do or a better idea of how to do it it seems that it's a pretty poor idea to just complain.