Author Topic: not changed since AH1: autoretract (Read 2529 times)

Tac · « **on:** October 25, 2007, 04:54:41 PM »

Welp HTC... tried this game again since AH1 and although the graphics are prettier, the FM tweaked a bit I see no difference in gameplay at all.

Worse yet, I see that the auto-retraction of flaps is still in the game. Very sad to see this considering that this issue severely affects the performance of the P-38. Kinda pointless most times to even use the fowler flaps knowing they are sure to be the cause of your death when they retract and spin you out during a hard G turn just because the stupid speed ticker hit the X speed mark for a split second during the turn.

I'm very dissapointed.

Karnak · « **Reply #1 on:** October 25, 2007, 05:01:23 PM »

As ever, it does not affect the P-38 except to give it an advantage. All that would happen without the autoretract is that your P-38 would lose its flaps instead of retract them.

Any time they autoretract, stop using them. There, you have simulated how it would work if they didn't have autoretract.

Frankly, I agree with you that autoretract should be removed as it is wholly unrealistic. But it is a massive advantage for the P-38, F4U and Ki-84, not the disadvantage it is claimed to be.

Tac · « **Reply #2 on:** October 25, 2007, 05:16:35 PM »

Karnak,

There is no advantage to fowlers auto retracting. I dont see how you can make this claim.

You 2 notches of flaps down turning hard inside your target. To make it simple imagine its a loop-fight.

Top of the loop your speed falls to 100mph, on the bottom of the loop it reaches 200mph. Lets say the 'tick' mark for the autoretract of the 2nd notch of flaps is 200mph.

What happens is: The INSTANT the speed ticker hits 200mph on the bottom of the loop the flap retracts one notch.

Airflow on the wing changes AS you are pulling the nose hard up. Result? Spin. Nothing you can do about it.. its the game itself with this fairy feature screwing you over.

The 38 IRL did not have its flaps retract at all. They jammed ...and ONLY when they were seriously abused (I think the plane had to be like 150mph faster than the threshold to jam on their rails). They did not rip out.

If you have flaps out for 2 or 3 seconds past the max allowed speed then by all means rip them out, retract them, WHATEVER. But this BS of them retracting the instant a speed tick mark is reached (usually for less than half a second) causing spins should not be in the game.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #3 on:** October 25, 2007, 06:02:39 PM »

Tac, unfortunately I don't think we'll see the removal of this pathetic hand holding coddling feature in our life time. I've posted numerous times about this and even posted, along with some others, viable solutions and suggestions to properly model flaps for all planes and the damage they'd incur from over speeding.

All these threads about the auto-retracting feature does is bring out players like Karnak who ball up their fists and nash their teeth and talk about how we only want this so we can have an unfair advantage. Karnak however doesn't realize that quite a few of us come from games that didn't have auto-retracting flaps and modeled the damage from over speeding. Strange how that feature in those games didn't give one an unfair advantage over another nor did it drive away new players or scare off potential new players. *shrug*

ack-ack

Badboy · « **Reply #4 on:** October 25, 2007, 06:08:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
What happens is: The INSTANT the speed ticker hits 200mph on the bottom of the loop the flap retracts one notch.

Airflow on the wing changes AS you are pulling the nose hard up. Result? Spin. Nothing you can do about it.. its the game itself with this fairy feature screwing you over.

Tac,

The auto retract shouldn't cause you to spin the P-38 and has never caused me to spin any of the P-38s.

I've just flown some loops at full flaps, the auto retract doesn't cause any problem at all, certainly no stall and no spin.

Perhaps something else is causing you to spin, but I don't think it is the auto retracting flaps.

Badboy

Lusche · « **Reply #5 on:** October 25, 2007, 06:16:53 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Badboy
Tac,

The auto retract shouldn't cause you to spin the P-38 and has never caused me to spin any of the P-38s.

Same here. Auto retract may be unrealistic and one may don't like it, but I never lost control because of it.

Tac · « **Reply #6 on:** October 25, 2007, 06:20:39 PM »

My experience says otherwise. Every time I spin out of control in those situations its always right after the flap retracts. Heck, I even watch the whoopee speed ticker and see it retract and get the instant spin-out. Doing the turn with no flaps out pulling even harder on the stick I do not spin..but if flaps are out and they retract... it does.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #7 on:** October 25, 2007, 06:46:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Badboy
Tac,

The auto retract shouldn't cause you to spin the P-38 and has never caused me to spin any of the P-38s.

I've just flown some loops at full flaps, the auto retract doesn't cause any problem at all, certainly no stall and no spin.

Perhaps something else is causing you to spin, but I don't think it is the auto retracting flaps.

Badboy

It will cause you to spin at times. It's bane for us dedicated 38 drivers ever since the L was added. However, with experience you can catch it before departure and recover but in most cases that will result in losing the advantage and possibly the fight.

It usually happens when you're in a nose low turn fight and pulling a hard turn right at the moment the flaps decide to auto-retract. When that happens, it feels like the wing just suddenly lost lift and you start to spin. Since this usually happens when the 38 driver is low near the deck, most of the time these spins are unrecoverable.

When you start to hear the flaps auto-retract, better ease up on the stick a little otherwise you'll spin if you're pulling any Gs in a turn.

ack-ack

Karnak · « **Reply #8 on:** October 25, 2007, 06:49:42 PM »

Tac,

What would happen if the game didn't do the autoretract is the instant your speed touched 200mph your flaps would break.

The people advocating that autoretracting be taken out do not seem to understand that. It would make flap play very, very dicey. The P-38 and F4U would be much, much better off than the Ki-84 (which would functionally lose its combat flaps), but a slight error would (depending on how HiTech chose to model them breaking) either strip them from the aircraft or jam them in their current setting. I suppose they could also be forced to retract and simply not be lowerable as well.

It feels to me like you expect them to stay out, or hold the fighter back, if there were no autoretract and that is simply not what would happen. HiTech himself stated that the alternative was to simply have them break at the set speed.

JB73 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:06:39 PM »

to add to what Karnak said, if you want to argue "a couple of seconds wouldn't break the flaps" where then DO you draw the line?

there has to be a failure point, and HTC has set those points. instead of having the flap "break" and then be in a stuck position or whatever they have decided to have the flaps retract.

instead of worrying about them auto retracting why not watch your speed and stay below the point they retract?

Tac · « **Reply #10 on:** October 25, 2007, 09:01:15 PM »

JB the 'couple of seconds' does not imply an increase in speed while flaps out. The issue is the plane has the retract point for the flaps at a speed that is quickly attainable by the 38 in a high G loop turn but it does not retain the speed for ..heck not even half a second before it's bled down to much lower than the current retract point.

Its not a question of drawing the line. It has been drawn already and it has issues. It needs to be addressed or changed.

Autoretract should not be in the game PERIOD. Let them jam, let them rip out if you want. Jamme flaps do not spin you out. Ripped out flaps will make you lose whatever turn benefit you HAD.. they rip you lose it but you dont spin out of control. The retraction feater has to go.

You say I should watch my speed... the question is WHY should I? Any other plane does NOT have to...when they SHOULD. Ironic how strongly some argue about a fantasy feature that if removed would also affect their rides but tell the 38 drivers to take it in the arse and shut up.

I dream of the day f4u's and n1ks and spits fly around with massive flap damage.

JB73 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 25, 2007, 10:01:37 PM »

well it's just that I have seen this discussion soooo many times, and actually witnessed Dale and Doug talk about it in person at one of the conventions.

I really don't think they are ever going to change it, as there is no other viable option to put in place.

it's one of those "live with it" things like network lag. it can't be changed.

SgtPappy · « **Reply #12 on:** October 25, 2007, 10:38:36 PM »

Though I'd like to point out that the F4U Corsair could retract its flaps automatically under certain speeds and up to 25 degrees i believe. Any more degrees and the flaps would jam in their position. Says somewhere in my manual; i'll get more detailed info later.

Widewing · « **Reply #13 on:** October 25, 2007, 11:44:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SgtPappy
Though I'd like to point out that the F4U Corsair could retract its flaps automatically under certain speeds and up to 25 degrees i believe. Any more degrees and the flaps would jam in their position. Says somewhere in my manual; i'll get more detailed info later.

According to Bodhi, who rebuilds F4Us, if the flap lever was left down, the flaps would blow up, but come down automatically when speed allowed. Set it and forget it.... The RONCO Corsair!

My regards,

Widewing

Widewing · « **Reply #14 on:** October 26, 2007, 12:27:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
Autoretract should not be in the game PERIOD. Let them jam, let them rip out if you want. Jamme flaps do not spin you out. Ripped out flaps will make you lose whatever turn benefit you HAD.. they rip you lose it but you dont spin out of control. The retraction feater has to go.

The way the real world P-38 flaps would fail is that that rollers could be popped out of the respective tracks and jam. As often as not, only one would jam. That creates a serious issue with asymmetrical lift when you do try retract them.

Here's my thoughts on the issue. I can't recall the last time I encountered a spin as a result of the flaps retracting. Nary even a wobble, for that matter, and I push the 38 as hard as anyone else. The Ki-84 is far more prone to a dipping a wing if the flaps retract, and I can catch that without undue drama.

I have a unique sound for flap movement that I can hear over the background noise. That adds a certain tactile input, meaning I can hear the flaps coming up before they actually have a major effect on handling. That allows me a second to adjust my input and avoid any adverse consequence beyond the reduced lift. As it is, I'm very smooth on the controls and don't have stall problems in any aircraft, and I'm a proponent of the "if it ain't shakin', it ain't turnin" style.

I've dueled with many P-38 sticks and one common problem is being too abrupt on the controls, which often induces a snap-stall-spin auger. I see it all the time. Which, by the way, is why I preach: "slow is smooth and smooth is fast." If you fight the aircraft, the aircraft usually wins. if you're wrestling with the airplane and induce a spin, ease off some. Besides, rough flying gobbles up energy. The current P-38 isn't what it used to be. Excessive use of flaps is always counter-productive.

My regards,

Widewing