Discussion

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by raider73
Why do people on 200 mostly Knights say everytime someone talks about being ho'ed they go Takes two to ho. It doesnt take two it takes one and the other can try to avoid but hard once u guys are 1k and gaining they say takes two to ram but someone can intentionaly Ram someone i have done it before so please explain why knights say Takes two to ram and hoe

Punctuation is your friend.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by NCLawman
I am now around 4000 feet and slow from trying to follow the nik without the overshoot....I pushed down slightly to try and get enough speed to even think about manuevering the Typhie and was trying to stay under the shots.   By now, he had pushed down enough to stay on angle with me and actually pinged me around D400.  I pulled back up to go high over his nose and avoid the pinging cannons and at D200, I let off a burst of my own cannon before successully going over the top of his plane.

*** *** ***
So, my question for this discussion thread (and this is not sarcastic, I truly want suggestions)....  Once I have become low and slow and can barely turn, and another guy is intent on going for the HO (with the mighty Ho-monster) what are some feasible options for avoiding?

Seems to me that you picked the best option.  Four thousand is still pretty high, you did right to push the nose over.  Typhoons are pretty good at picking up speed.  You regained enough energy to pull up and over him without stalling out.  Had the collision not occurred, this might not have been a good thing to do, though; you would have been VERY slow and close to a plane that outturned you at those speeds.

All planes do their best turning when pointed straight up or straight down - when vertical, just roll to the desired direction and pull down (or up, as the case may be!).  This is especially useful for the heavy slow turners like the Typhoon.  Next time you're in these circumstances give it a try.

- oldman

[Simaril]

I'm no ACM expert, but this is what occurs to me:

Nose down throws the shot off, but only moves you in one plane. Guys who start shooting way out aren't generally even the best HOers, so it seems to me that adding a second plane of maneuver would very likely be enough to throw his aim completely off for the initial, most dangerous merge. By changing the flight path continuously, he has to continuously readjust the lead even more than I would (cause he has to point AHEAD of me to get a hit), burning E all the while. And, by doing a lead turn before the merge, I'm going to be set up to get out of there much easier.

I might have nosed down, then giving just enough time for him to react to the first move roll a bit and pull up into a flattish yo yo or wing over. Assuming the miss, the *plan* after that would be to roll into an off angle egress, to force him to yank the stick around and burn some of that E while letting me stay straight, nose down, wep on, and both pick up speed and range as he sets up a tail chase.



Had a problem similar to that last week when I joined an aggressive squaddie who was engaged low and slow on the deck 1v3 before I got there. He's much more willing to die to get the one kill than I am, so when we broke free of the scrum briefly he went right back in...and it was now a 1v2.

I was in P51D and was against Spixteen and Lala, with me having a very small energy advantage. The long and the short of it is that I used energy conservation as best I could while moderately trying to get a shot on one or the other, but also looking for the chance to break free. (We were a bit out of the way, but way closer to their base than to ours.) The other two were yanking sticks all over the sky trying for immediate shots, which meant that when I topped out on a barrel roll and saw the hole I was able to complete the rollout with a separating dive.


And the net effect was that within 15 seconds I was 1.0 out, and by a minute I was 1.5 and extending. The other two are much better accelerators, but had to go from a standing start.

The point being, of course, that using angles and energy conservation while forcing the enemy to use up both can translate into major tactical advantage.

[toonces3]

Originally posted by NCLawman
Here is an incident from last night. (Readers Digest Versioni)

 Yet, he dives in directly on the nose and levels off at 1K out headed right at me.   At D800 I see the steady stream of tracers from all his cannons opening up.  I pushed down slightly to try and get enough speed to even think about manuevering the Typhie and was trying to stay under the shots.   By now, he had pushed down enough to stay on angle with me and actually pinged me around D400.  ISo, my question for this discussion thread (and this is not sarcastic, I truly want suggestions)....  Once I have become low and slow and can barely turn, and another guy is intent on going for the HO (with the mighty Ho-monster) what are some feasible options for avoiding?


>S<  Thank you

This is actually the same question I have.

The HO is, or can be, a good move from the standpoint that it forces me (the HO-ee) to maneuver my plane to avoid.  At the very least, by going nose low there, I've given up angles to the other plane already.  Against a good stick, that alone is probably enough to be fatal.

If the HO-er in that situation leveled out instead of trying to keep the pipper on you, then he's already in the position of advantage.

Unfortunately, unlike most of you, I get killed all too often in that situation.  I jink to move out of the way of the tracers and end up getting hit anyway.

[humble]

Originally posted by toonces3
This is actually the same question I have.

The HO is, or can be, a good move from the standpoint that it forces me (the HO-ee) to maneuver my plane to avoid.  At the very least, by going nose low there, I've given up angles to the other plane already.  Against a good stick, that alone is probably enough to be fatal.

If the HO-er in that situation leveled out instead of trying to keep the pipper on you, then he's already in the position of advantage.

Unfortunately, unlike most of you, I get killed all too often in that situation.  I jink to move out of the way of the tracers and end up getting hit anyway.

Heres the rub...

You don't ever manuever to avoid the HO...you dont have to. What you do is manuever to position yourself correctly in relation to your adversary. This just about eliminates the HO 100%. By simply doing the "correct" thing you eliminate the HO and convert it to a FQ shot. Now your simply managing his lift vector at the merge.

He has a very finite range of movement....while it is just about impossbile to merge and completely deny any shot of any kind you can create an almost impossible shot window that creates significant angular advantage for you and potential significant E advantage as well. The simple reality is that it is very hard to hit a reasonably fast out of plane target under high G loads.

If your flying to avoid the HO then by definition your flying a bad "merge". If your flying to maximize your tactical situation you've already eliminated the HO before hes in effective guns range...

[Simaril]

DON'T jink. Jinking means you're varying your course along a basic line -- if the HO'er throws bullets down the middle you're likely to fly into them.

What we're calling a "lead turn" is really the same kind of planning ahead that quarterbacks and recievers so all the time. Position yourself for where the opponent is going to be instead of where he is right now!

So, when you see someone coming straight at you, start turning well before you get there, judging things so you would "drop on his 6" 400 behind him, with you now flying the same direction he is. A lead turn can be horizontal or vertical (ie a half loop), and each kind will have different timing.


If you intend to go striaght through -- maybe you're chasing one guy and another tries to throw you off his buddy by HOing you -- then just do a barrell roll. His "targeting solution" needed to hit you will spin all over the sky, and he'll never keep up with the curve. After you pass him, flatten out and contnue in the desired direction.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by humble
...snip...
If your flying to avoid the HO then by definition your flying a bad "merge". If your flying to maximize your tactical situation you've already eliminated the HO before hes in effective guns range...

And this is what I think of when I hear "it takes 2 to HO." If I'm doing my job well, the flat Head on pass just doesnt happen.

There are times I end up in a tough HO situation, but its almost always when I'm in a turn or loop fight and we get out of phase -- so our noses are turning into each other. When equal angular position, it's a HO, but it's a very very different shot than the one most people talk about.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Simaril
And, by doing a lead turn before the merge, I'm going to be set up to get out of there much easier.
 

And that will get you killed.  Can someone that duels a lot back me on this?  What happens if you turn too early at the merge in the DA?  Its instant death.  I think the results of the fight mislead people to think that the bad guy died because he tried to HO or because he lost position during the HO.  The reality is that it was probably someone that could not fight and thats why he tried to HO.  You would have killed the guy any way.  Maybe even faster.  But, that is not a function of the HO itself.

From the few duels that had in DA, I learned one thing.  You break to early at the merge, you die.  Now if you set up from 4K or 5K out to avoid a close to HO merge it may be a different story but that is not avoiding a HO since there was never the opportunity for one.   Then, after the first merge, you will eventually end up facing each other if your skill level is similar. What do you do then?  It will only take ONE of you to pull the trigger.  It will also take only one of you to try and avoid it and expose your belly.  It will take one of you to claim it was a low deflection, bla bla bla.  The only thing that takes both of you is respect of the other guy and NOT pulling the trigger.  Respect the fact that he did not HO you and tried to avoid the collision and do the same.  That is the only thing that takes TWO.

However, most people in here are looking for a kill.  Earning it or enjoying a fight are not important.

[KONG1]

There is a technique I like to call the psychological HO. This is where you're not flying for the HO or trying for the HO but you keep the guy thinking about the HO.

(1) From 2500 to 2000 out waste some BBs so the guy sees the flashes, now he's thinking about it, he also thinks your a noob and don't have a clue. Same goes when your chasing a guy; always fire from too far away makes it more likely he'll turn around.

(2) If the first pass isn't a hard merge fly your normal approach making sure you don't get HOed,  but as you pass make sure they hear the guns rattle. When you turn around don't do it well, flop a little bit, whatever. Now their thinking "dudes gonna ho every time" they also think you don't know what your doing, this tends to make them more aggressive.

(3) At this point you can "run", this will further make your opponent believe your a hopeless noob and will often prompt him to leave the safety of his horde and follow you. He's thinking this is an easy kill.

(4) When you finally merge in earnest, fly for separation, go for the lead turn and as you pass rattle the guns. This keeps him thinking about the HO and quite possibly Ps him off. More the better.

(5) Now fly your fight, don't give up position for the shot but squeeze off BBs at opportune times. Makes them be more careful. Be prepared to be called a HO dweeb when you shoot them down from behind. You can honestly reply "I didn't try to HO". This will further infuriate your opponent which is, as Hitech has indicated, the object of the game.


Finally, a little nugget for the dweebin:  NEVER talk smack when you get shot down. It always comes off as a whine. If your going to talk smack only do it when your successful. If someones tries to HO and you kill them, that's the time to explain how lame they are. Same goes for gangs and vulches.

Word.

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by dedalos
And that will get you killed.  Can someone that duels a lot back me on this?

However, most people in here are looking for a kill.  Earning it or enjoying a fight are not important.

Yup, and yup!

[humble]

If it happens after the merge its not a HO.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by KONG1

Finally, a little nugget for the dweebin:  NEVER talk smack when you get shot down. It always comes off as a whine. If your going to talk smack only do it when your successful. If someones tries to HO and you kill them, that's the time to explain how lame they are. Same goes for gangs and vulches.

Word.

Just making sure Storch wont miss this one

[toonces3]

At Kong,
Actually when a guy HO's me at the merge, or even a bit out, I do give him more space.  Especially in a cannon plane.

I won't give up the fight, but I find myself constantly cognizant of any head on situation that I can expect to get shot at, and that probably leads to me maneuvering to stay out of front more than I otherwise would.  It leads to a defensive mindset on my part.  

It doen't happen often, but up against the big cannon birds like La-7s, Niks, and Typhoons, it's on my mind.

I think I need to get into the DA with someone and learn these avoidance techniques.  I was always taught that you wanted to merge as close to the other guy as possible to reduce separation so he can't get angles at the merge.  Anything that you do that maneuvers away from the enemy's nose would intuitively seem to be giving up an angle to him.  

I think I need to see what y'all are talking about to understand.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by dedalos
And that will get you killed.  Can someone that duels a lot back me on this?  What happens if you turn too early at the merge in the DA?  Its instant death. ....

In DA, or in a fight between 2 people who are thinking "duel", absolutely. But I can hardly ever recall those kind of merges in MA. Most of time, when I do a late DA style break the other guy goes straight on through, or breaks even after the merge, so there's so much separation that I get no shot opportunity.

I'm wondering if the difference is the set up ahead of time. In the DA, all merges are essentially head on with no lateral or vertical separation. However, in the MA I usually try to get those separations before the merge -- I try NOT to have the enemy in the armor glass, but off to the side or above as we close. They usually let me have the separation, which lets me start the lead turn earlier without as much danger. In general, I've used a rule of thumb I learned from Murdr when talking about lead moves in vertical attack -- I start my move when the opponent crosses the imaginary line drawn along my best tightest path.

If they don't give the separation, then I usually end up with a later lead turn.


Do you experienced guys think earlier lead turns are bad even under these circumstances?


Toonces:

I think you are remembering the same thing these guys are saying, but it seems to me those rules of thumb apply best when both sides are flying with the same merge rules,. the most important of which is nose to nose late break.

Those things may not apply in the MA, just like formalized medieval jousting was very different from a battle like Agincourt.

[toonces3]

Everything I'm saying is applied to an MA environment.

Dueling is a totally different animal.