It takes a Frenchman to see the greatness in the USA

[Viking]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Seemed to me he was belittling Dago.... but that was just my take..

Of course I may be mistaken. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Hap]

Originally posted by Viking
Seems the oh-so-offended Americans can't back up their indignation with ... anything. How shocking ...


(Reasonable Americans excluded of course.)

Warning: Off Topic

Viking, your post made me think of a book I'm reading: "Europe and the Faith" by Hillaire Belloc.  Facinating how folks prior to the fall of Constantinople did not have a nationalistc outlook.

Off Topic Concluded

[straffo]

Off topic continued


I can't speak of other country but I think in France it didn't started before revolution , for the Italian before the Risorgimento and probably for the German Bismark and the 1870 war.

[bj229r]

Originally posted by Thruster
........................
I hate that I see my government behaving like the tyrannies our fathers paid so dearly to defeat and purge from humanity.
I hate that I see in our culture an inexorable slide into a lowest common denominator mindset. I hate that with almost 300 million citizens, the best we can come up with for candidates to the exalted position of Commander in Chief are the ones we are considering today.
I'm sickened by many things I see in my country everyday. Is that un-American?

As for France, I don't see that we've really ever truly repaid them in kind for the debt we owe. Remember that were it not for France, we would likely never existed as a nation at all. We have never endured the history of the European countries and don't live with the national memories of the kind of devastation war has brought to many other nations of the world, neither has Britain. to expect any Continental government to have the same views as we do regarding national policy is uninformed, arrogant and, well, just un-American.

Surely someone will rebut that we honored our historical obligation to the French and will point to the endless cemeteries filled with allied soldiers of both wars. Just remember how we fought in France, the civilian casualty estimates used by the strategists, the offhand support offered to partisans, the millions we allowed to die until we were drawn into the European engagement by a collateral defense treaty we weren't even a party to. Because we declared war on a nation on the opposite side of the planet.
If we had to worry about 90 year old unexploded bombs in our backyards, I trust we would have a bit more pragmatic view of armed conflict. It is our privilege and obligation to be the standard by which the world measures itself and only with mature and educated introspection can we hope to honor that obligation. Not by by assuming your backyard is better than another's simply because YOU were born there. [/B]

OOOKKKkkkkk Senator Reid, step BACK from the keyboard!


I'm sorry this turned into yet another US/France pissing contest, REALLY wasn't my intent. Tripe like the afore-quoted snippet from self-loathing US liberals was was my target. It would seem Sarkozy has a more positive view of the US than this gentleman does. Sarkozy, and possibly Merkel, have come to the astute conclusion that there are worse things happening to our civilization than what MTV and Paris Hilton are doing to it, and that it's time to put our petty differences aside

[Thruster]

I find it funny that someone who takes the time to use as a sig line a quote that criticizes complacency and promotes integrity over cowardice is the same voice that has nothing to add but a few tired provocations. Not surprising, just funny.

The men who founded this country warned against this exact mindset. As I said before, as Americans we are obligated to continually endeavor to create a society that leads the rest of the nations on the planet economically, intellectually, and culturally. If one is unable to look in the mirror and see flaws, then one would be fairly labeled delusional, arrogant, or just stupid.

To those that are upset that there's too much criticism of America's global policy, or any other aspect of this country for that matter, I suggest you man up. I was taught to follow my values and faith, to hell with what some foreigner thinks, or what some other citizen thinks. If I am able to reconcile my actions with my beliefs, and have defend able reason to do so, I personally could care less what you want of me. And I am not going to become an apologist for the questionable actions of those we place in power. That's what cowards and commies do.

The sentiments expressed in the beginning quote are the reason why as Americans we should embrace every opportunity to become a better example for the world to follow. Eventually the message is heard. It takes time, but truth will ultimately take the day.

As far as the "Hillary Supporter" shot, be advised the last person that intimated I might be receptive to either Clinton in office is still waiting for an organ donor.

Bj, I'll let the "liberal" characterization slide for now since I'm pretty sure you don't know what it means.

[bj229r]

Well....you could be a libertarian guy I spose... I DO agree there is nada for candidates. Would be nice to see another Reagan, but it's not in the offing. However, all the critical points you made of the US mirror the editorial board of the NY Times, or the DNC newsletter

[Thruster]

It's always rewarding to have one's views endorsed by major players in the game. Thanks, I don't pay attention to either of the sources you noted. I just have a hard time understanding why the"critical points" made aren't on top of every partisan agenda. They seem kind of fundamental to me.

[lazs2]

thruster.. I am curious... what tyranny do you see us doing?   I mean... we seem to be the most benign superpower that ever existed..  We have, in the past acted much much much worse to other people, countries and our own people than we are today.  

I am curious how you can be ashamed of the current state if you compare it to the past.

and... as for tyranny?  I would say that the most tyranny we inflict is on ourselves.. our government does more to tyrannize it's own citizens than it ever has.. we are destroying our own constitution and bill of rights.   Only the civil war was a more blatant tyranny against the people of the US.

lazs

[sgt203]

Originally posted by KgB
Be proud all you want.
France didnt buy that "Iraqi freedom" crap,so you and people like you
were the first ones to call Frace a "coward".The point is that USA's current diplomacy is very simple,you just say-"we gonna do it,and we gonna do it our way".Thers no need to pander to Europeans,but to listen to what they have to say would be a great start.I bet after one and half trillion dollars you still dont know what the hell you doing in Iraq.
Thers a battle in parlament,instead of working things out,they( D and R)
throwing feces at each other.
No,USA is not the greatest,USA is devided more than ever.

FYI...


The problems with the French Government, not most of the people, is much LONGER, than their stance on Iraq.

I've had personal disdain for the French Government Since 1982 when the US was poised to strike Libyia. The French Governments refusal, not to participate,  but to grant US F-111's ( I believe this was the particular aircraft its been awhile) based in England to use French Airspace enroute to or upon return from it's targets.

The French Government has consistantly held positions contrary to those of the National Interests of the United States for years, in fact dating back to Charles DeGaulle. The disdain of Chirac for US Foreign Policy and US Interests. along with his retoric was at least in my view the breaking point.

And quite frankly the "French are Cowards" thing is not a Iraq issue. This has been a long standing reputation.

What is deemed to be in the national interests and for the security of the United States, need not, nor should not, have to be a general consensus of European Countries. It is not up France, Germany or any other country what we should do in the name of OUR National Security.

If France doesn't like what the United States does in it's National Interest and Defense, stay on the sidelines were used to it and expect it.

However dont spout of your European consensus crap or expect us to ask for Frances permission or advice to do anything.

But rest assured that should France need our help (again) Im quite sure we will be there to bail you out and help you rebuild if for no other reason it is in our national interest.

BTW... Spreaken ze Deutch???? YOUR WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!  

 Have a Nice Day.

[Viking]

If France had allowed your warplanes to transit French airspace en route to Libya then France would have been a participant to the attack. France did not want that for obvious reasons.

The attack itself was also horribly misguided and an abyssal failure (if not a crime), and directly led to increased Libyan terrorism. The bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie was a direct response to the US bombing that failed to kill Gaddafy ... but killed his wife and infant daughter.

[leitwolf]

Originally posted by sgt203
[..]The French Government has consistantly held positions contrary to those of the National Interests of the United States for years, in fact dating back to Charles DeGaulle. The disdain of Chirac for US Foreign Policy and US Interests. along with his retoric was at least in my view the breaking point.[..]

And what if the National Interests of the US don't overlap with those of France? Which ones should the french government give priority?

Easy answer imho.

[EagleEyes]

After reading all this, i know it will be closed soon.  So all i have to say is, After what we "AMERICANS" did in WWII, all we asked for from France was to have a little bit of land on the Normandy Coast.   Let us not forget how many Americans have died to defeat tyranny and oppression.

[Viking]

Let's not forget that you were not alone ... and that you waited two years before joining the rest of us in fighting tyranny and oppression.

[straffo]

Originally posted by EagleEyes
After reading all this, i know it will be closed soon.  So all i have to say is, After what we "AMERICANS" did in WWII, all we asked for from France was to have a little bit of land on the Normandy Coast.   Let us not forget how many Americans have died to defeat tyranny and oppression.

 

And the commonwealth soldier just don't count ?

[Dago]

Originally posted by Viking
Let's not forget that you were not alone ... and that you waited two years before joining the rest of us in fighting tyranny and oppression.

Let's not forget we were not under attack with the exception of a ship sunk, and we had been supporting in a big way with materials and equipment the country who stood up to the Nazis.  (we will exclude mentioning the nations that folded almost immediately after they were invaded).