FSO Rule adjustments

[BooBird]

New to FSO's but not new to organized events (Warbirds S3's).  This rule (T+60) seems to me to disallow thought out offensive and defensive stratergies.  Historically the Allied force didn't send a telegram statign where they were going and that they would be there in an hour.

Why not prioritize targets.  Assign different point values for each and make a simple Two Targets Per Frame Rule.  This allows allied CO's to determine what target has the most to gain versus resistance and the axis CO's to try and outsmart the Allies.  It sounds to me that it has become a game of axis and allies where you know where the fight is it all depends on the dice rolls.  

IMHO If you allowed creative thought in organizing the offensive and defensive fronts the FSO's would be that more interesting.  Who cares if you see action in the first 60 minutes.  It creates realism.  Never knowing when.  Allowing plenty of time to get your defensives set against what you think is coming.

And airstarts.  I know they were really popular during WWII....c'mon...

It was one attack, one sortie, one mission,  several targets.

I left warbirds because they numbers there were struggling and admin did not care to improve upon his product.  I am excited to fly the FSO's.  Don't ruin it with too many rules.

[Sled]

Hey BooBird,

Glad to see you guys come over and try FSO.

I am excited to fly the FSO's. Don't ruin it with too many rules.

I couldn't agree more. Most of what we have for "Rules" (probably better to call them "Guidelines"). Stem from things in FSO's past where CiC's (side commanders), or Squad CO's, took advantage of the lack of rules and "Gamed the event".

Most of what you see in the FSO "rules" is a result of this.

I am curious to hear what kind of "rules" there are in S3. What types of problems did you have in that event (as far as Gaming) and how did the Janitors and side commanders deal with these things after the fact?

How did S3 deal with situations where squads did not see action during an event? Example: The Axis commander only sends 2 AC to attack a base being defended by 20 Allies. Therefore those 20 Allies have a very boring night with little action.

S3 was the same as FSO in respect to: 2 hour event, two sides attacking and defending targets. Correct?

Was it a strictly enforced 2 hours?

I am most eager to hear your fresh perspective.  

[Nefarious]

Originally posted by BooBird
I am excited to fly the FSO's.  Don't ruin it with too many rules.

Didn't see your squad registered. Which squad are you with?

Originally posted by BooBird
New to FSO's but not new to organized events (Warbirds S3's).  This rule (T+60) seems to me to disallow thought out offensive and defensive stratergies.  Historically the Allied force didn't send a telegram statign where they were going and that they would be there in an hour.

Why not prioritize targets.  Assign different point values for each and make a simple Two Targets Per Frame Rule.  This allows allied CO's to determine what target has the most to gain versus resistance and the axis CO's to try and outsmart the Allies.  It sounds to me that it has become a game of axis and allies where you know where the fight is it all depends on the dice rolls.  

Novel idea of prioritized targets, but that is exactly why we have a time limit. That is to ensure everyone sees action.

If FSO had four targets per side, and only two had to be attacked, Two Defensive groups would not see action, we try to make FSO historical as possible but flying around for two hours and seeing no enemies is not something we're trying to emulate.

[Sled]

I believe they are flying as guest this event. I will make sure they have squads to fly with.

I have been in contact with them. They will form a squad when they stabilize in FSO.

[BooBird]

S3's were actually a 3 hour event.  Medium sized maps with mulitple (10-15) possible targets.  It created a situation where it wasn't hey squad A guard this base, hey squad B you over there.  Both sides were given both offensive and defensive objectives.  Defensive was multi layered caps.  High cap, mid cap, low cap.  Fighters (ex 109s) had resposibility for fighter escort while others (190's) would get buffs.  It did stretch you out.  It has a 40 mile redar so you see them coming and hope you guessed right.  But is it a decoy or the real deal.  They was so much to discuss in this forum format.  I have e-mailed the guys who have come over to Aces High who have the wisdom and experience from being involved with these for years.

As far as rules were.  Depended on frame.  
Generally there was no ord drop after T+150 or T+160
You had to RTB before the frame ended.
You had to hit so many targets per frame(and they carried over) If I hit Field 1 in frame 1 it was closed in Frame 2.
You could not manually man ack.
The Janitors just gave the CO's a list of objectives and set the plane set.  
Janitors would provide some intelligence both ways so that things funneled towards something.  (Reports of heavy radio traffic from allied field 17) (Reports of possible P-47 formations somewhere in the 6.5. grid)
These didn't say what they were there for just intel.
Obviously you only get one life.
 
I will have some of the others get on here and see if they can clear any of my rambling up as I am not the supreme council on this things.

Please do not take this as an insult or criticism in any way.  None was intended.
Like I mentioned before I am very excited about these FSO's.

SLED I replied to your PM.

[BooBird]

Originally posted by Nefarious
Didn't see your squad registered. Which squad are you with?

 

Novel idea of prioritized targets, but that is exactly why we have a time limit. That is to ensure everyone sees action.

If FSO had four targets per side, and only two had to be attacked, Two Defensive groups would not see action, we try to make FSO historical as possible but flying around for two hours and seeing no enemies is not something we're trying to emulate.

That is why you layer your cap and assign patrols.

You are set to defend a country not just an airfield.  This means a well thought out, orchestrated, concentrated mission into enemy territory.  They are gonna come balls to the walls. It is about being in position, with patrols ready to break off and engage.  It plays into the fuel situation.  It plays into the plane set.  I understand the point of no action.  Usually this would work into smaller quicker strikes before the big one where all are involved.  Each squad in their assigned aircraft given specific responsibilities.  You dont wanna attack buffs in a 109.  Use them to engage fighter sweep.  IMHO if you assigned both sides a offensive and defensive position that would help elimiante some lag.  And you rotate these roles.

Again, I dont want to stir the hornests nest but I felt compelled to voice an opinion on the T+60 rule.

You guys obviously do a superb job and I can not wait to get up this Friday night.  Great Big .

[daddog]

Many years ago I went rounds and rounds about the FSO design with other CM’s. banana was the head CM then. I Adopted many of the successful patterns the S3’s have. Those guys were a huge help. Nothing but respect for the crew that manages the S3’s, but what works for S3’s does not mean it will work for Squad Operations. Two different communities, two different WWII flight sims that have subtle but significant differences when it boils down to event and player management. Hope you come to enjoy FSO BooBird, but try it as it stands for a while. Many have said FSO is the reason they are still in AH. We have watched it grow from under 100 in the first frame of Aug 2001 (called Tour of Duty back then) to over 300 now. If I recall the AK’s were there in the first TOD.

The T+60 rule has been in place for many years and has been successful in boosting the enjoyment of most, if not all players in FSO. Sled and Nef have already pointed out no one wants to fly around for an hour or more without action. Yes it can be and is a hindrance to the planning of a CiC at times, but it is worth it. Also let me add that if an Admin CM comes up with a target that is to be attacked and due to its distance requires the CiC  to make a straight line low level attack due to time constraints, it is the fault of the Admin CM and adjustments should be made. This is almost always caught in the design phase of the event. We want to give CiC’s options, not take them away, but the options will never be at the cost of player enjoyment. Friday Squad Operations are not Scenarios. FSO’s are designed for players to have action in the first hour and it is a design that has worked out very well.

[trap2000]

Gentlemen

I'm with The Haze 100th FBG. The Haze goes back over ten years in WB's. The squad started years before I ever owned a computer, let alone played a flight sim. A small group of us, mostly newer players, recently left WB's and are attempting to broaden our scope to include AH. We will be flying with the 347FG this series. We hope to have enough players by the next event to fly as The Haze. I'm not much of a strategic thinker and tend to function better in smaller scale tactical situations. I have flown my share of S3's and while I was aware that "great plans" were always in the works, I focused on the small part I had to play. Here are some of things that come to mind when I think of past S3's:
Sitting for an hour on an airfield in England waiting for the scramble call when the Luftwaffe finally showed their hand.
Flying for almost three hours without ever finding the enemy while being on the edge of my seat with white knuckles because I knew contact with the enemy could occur at any moment.
No GPS, no inflight radar, no icons until D400, getting lost, trianglulating my position using the .vor command. Which side of the channel am I on?
My entire squad landing their 109s on the nearest roads because we ran out of fuel 15 miles short of the field.
Oh yes and the fights.
My hands are starting to shake now.

With that said, myself and the rest of The Haze look forward to flying the FSO. Cya in the unfriendly skies.

[REP0MAN]

I could not agree more with Daddog here. He is absolutely right.

Welcome BooBird and your friends, glad to have you here!

The only thing that I can add to this discussion aside from my support of the rules as Daddog has stated, is to say that I am thankful for the "Guidelines" or "Rules" of FSO. Without them, I believe the event would not be what it is today. Unfortunately, without some of the rules, FSO would just be another MA with a smaller plane set. That is not something I, the CM Staff nor any of the current loyal FSO player-base wants. Many people, myself included, would not be here if it weren't for FSO and events. The MA is, well, the MA.

The feedback is 100% accepted, wanted and taken into full consideration by the CM Staff. Please don't feel like any of you have no voice. That is just not the case. The rules are carefully scrutinized by the CM's and nothing, I repeat, nothing is done on a whim. These changes had many, many months of discussion and were finally decided on by the FSO CM's collectively.

Thank you for your continued attendance in FSO. I am passionate about FSO and have come to know many of the people I call friends in this event. Please know, my PM box is always open.

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by AKKaz
Not complaining or trying to put anyone back, just voicing a concern from many past experiences with FSO's.

It's appreciated, as are all the constructive comments posted above.  

Gents, let's try this on for a few FSO's.  We'll shake out the kinks (if any emerge as issues) and we'll go forward.  

I'm an admin, responsible for building the setups and scoring the results.  Nef, Nomde, and I are always looking for ways to build awesome events for you guys.  I had a number of issues to deal with in my first event, both from the setup side and the scoring.  Trust us, everyone gets a fair shake--we don't have any personal agendas save one--player enjoyment--period.  

The last thing we want is anyone walking away from an FSO with a bad experience during a frame.  These rules are attempt to regulate certain behaviors in order to guide the gameplay to maximize fun.  We felt they needed tweaking in order to better represent our intent for FSO, so we made some changes to the language.  If this current language doesn't work, we'll change it.

Last, if you think you have a good idea on how to set up an FSO or are interested in certain historical scenarios, please let us know.  Our PM boxes are open and we are all receptive to new ideas.  
Please understand that our only goal is to make things better.  As I said previously, if this doesn't work, we'll revisit it and modify the language.  And, we're always open to input from you guys.

[Kurt]

I only have strong feelings about rules that are difficult to fairly enforce (as discussed earlier this week in the discussion about the minimum aircraft)...

And, the rule was adjusted somewhat, so I know someone listened.

Personally I think that the rule should be more to the effect that the ORDERS should be inline with the spirit of the rules, since we can not effectively make the squads show up... But for the moment I'm ok with the result.

You know what I'd like to see... Better policing of the squad minimums... Seems like squads blow their minimums all the time with no ill result.  And in light of the fact that the plane minimums serve as something of a 'Double-dip', I think its really important that those squads get taken care of, because now, not only do they hurt the immersion of the event, they can actually cause their team to incur a rather significant penalty.

I know its hard to take an event like FSO and throw someone out for blowing minimums, but if you're not going to do that, then what exactly is the point of the rule existing?

Every squad is going to blow minimums once in a while, but some seem to do it with regularity you could set your calendar by...

[Sled]

Kurt,

Several squads have been removed from FSO in the recent weeks for just that.

I try to warn squads, and recommend that they reduce their commitment level. If they have multiple issues I will remove them if necessary.

We try to avoid penalizing a side points because a squad is under numbers. It is an option, but not one I am likely to use. It is better to deal with the specific squad.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by SLED

We try to avoid penalizing a side points because a squad is under numbers.

Well, thats my point...

No, you don't avoid it... Its a new rule that you infact do penalize the side.

You see, what I'm getting at is that if the ORDERS stick to the intent of the plane minimum rules, and some squad doesn't meet minimums you will penalize the team even though the CiC did is job and planned the minimums in good faith.

So, in effect, yes, you do penalize the team.

[AKKaz]

Originally posted by Krusty
If you can't get your fleet of 290-mph super-gunned B-24s to 30k and bomb the target inside of 60 minutes, fly at 20k and still outpace most of your enemy, out shoot most of them, drop on target, and STILL have time left over for formation and flight planning.

The higher you want to go the more time it takes, it increases geometrically. While it might only take 5 minutes to climb from 0k to 5k, it could take 8 minutes more to climb from 5k to 10k, and by the time you're climbing from 20k to 25k (or more) you're spending 20 minutes for 5,000 feet.


Dude, you can't have it all. Prioritize. Alt, or target. Pick one. My choice is the target.

When your target is deep in enemy territory, and the direct route is the only way to get there with a climb rate no greater than ROC 1, you don't tend to get that high.

Not all FSO's are the same, as not all assigned distances are either.

And just so hopefully you will see that your statement is not always the case......... Ever fly 6 sectors in a B5N diagonally? Fly 24's almost 7 sectors as it being the most direct line?  These are pretty hard even in the best of circumstances to meet the time frame of 60 mins and thats with giving up grabbing alt to do it. Also knowing the enemy knows this is your only route to make this time and packs all his defensive efforts at this.  8-9 or 10k is not the best place to be when hit by 30 or so 25k 190's.

I'm not saying your point at times isn't valid, but there are times in which is isn't the case either.

And to clarify.............. the 60 rule isn't my concern, it's leaving all the other aspects that come with it up to sole judgemental descretion as to whether the end result was good enough or not.  I couldn't even tell you right now on how many planes and ordanance is good enough to meet the requirement if a medium feild was my target.

Whats the minimum I want to not go below if I get attacked enroute to my target and need to call another group to send some of their force to aid mine to complete this mission.  Heck, their hitting a factory, how many do they need to requirement to not get penalized and do they have enough to send to me to accomplish mine in the time allotted.

For that matter, when I plan the day before to take those assigned to me to make a mission, how many can I put in escort duty versus heavy's?

This is but one example of an area of gray.  I really don't post that much, and also wouldn't want to spend my time posting at all if I didn't feel it wasn't a valid concern. I don't give carefree examples, any that I have always giving have been real and unavoidable.  And yes, target is always the priority....................

My apologies if any of my posts seem to look like throwing punches.  I try to take great care to ask the question with getting the point I am trying to make across the table.  Nothing more is intended.

[Sled]

Originally posted by Kurt
Well, thats my point...

No, you don't avoid it... Its a new rule that you infact do penalize the side.


So, in effect, yes, you do penalize the team.

Oh my, here we go again. Where does it say "we will penalize for under minimums" in FSO?

It does say this.......

- Squads that are under in attendance will be reminded and may have to lower their committed numbers. Any squad that is a no-show will be warned and then removed if it happens twice.

and....

- Squads that are chronically under their limit will be warned twice, then possibly removed from Squad Operations.

I see nothing about penalizing a side in points.