Author Topic: Is Bush ok?  (Read 3674 times)

Offline FrodeMk3

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Is Bush ok?
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2007, 08:15:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
One may conclude based on presumption that they have weapons grade fissionable material regarding the circumstantial evidence you've highlighted. It's a further stretch, though, to conclude they have ICBM technology advanced enough to launch a warhead past a nation on their border (as Tango seems to fear).

A couple of years is some breathing room .... unless someone is just eager to invade .... for ulterior motive. And since the biggest threat is to countries next to Iran it makes perfect sense to get those neighboring countries to join in applying political and economic pressure to deter Iran from making a crucial mistake regarding it's own survival. One relatively archaic nuclear "scud" launched from it would earn instant reprisal on a grander scale. Cooperation in avoiding such a stupid agenda may well yeild an economic and technological boon (versus a radioctive boom).

Another invasion and occupation based on questionable intel that further alienates international allies, stretches military logistics and impacts readiness (without taking preemptive measures to lessen the impact) based on ..... nothing but suspician ..... does not a brilliant move for the GWOT cause make.


I'd say that if they had one bomb/missile, they would save it for a rainy day(unstoppable U.S. invasion?) and use it as a tactical weapon of last resort.

Also, if they gave the bomb to a terrorist organization like Al-Queda, I doubt that a missile would go with it. The terrorist delivery device would be more stealthy and subtle, like...an 18-wheeler out of Mexico, or something.

Of course, with a cessation of the Iranian weapons' program, it's a non-issue, isn't it? If they complied with U.S. and international demands, then the deal's done.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2007, 08:17:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Also, if they gave the bomb to a terrorist organization like Al-Queda, I doubt that a missile would go with it. The terrorist delivery device would be more stealthy and subtle, like...an 18-wheeler out of Mexico, or something.

Of course, with a cessation of the Iranian weapons' program, it's a non-issue, isn't it? If they complied with U.S. and international demands, then the deal's done.


And there's more than Iran to fret over regarding such a scenario, anyhow.

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2007, 08:32:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
"Problem is, how long is 'our time' going to last?" (That's what you wrote, right?)

Yep I wrote that. Now since you have taken it out of context I'll try to place it back there. We have an assessment (note that is an assessment and not proof) that the weapons program has been suspended. Suspended implies it has been stopped but not done away with. You still with me here? A suspended program is capable of being reinstated, not from the beginning but from the point of where it was frozen or suspended. Note that I did not say it would be, is being or has been reinstated. I just made an observation not a prediction.

"Our time" being the time period of the suspended program. This is a diplomatic move on the part of iran's leadership. There is nothing preventing them from changing their mind. That means that the "our time" situation would be over. Kind of like what happened to Chamberlain. Please note I did not state that is what they are planning, have planned or are doing at this time. Again it is an observation.


Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
"Ahem.

Besides: "I'm not going to waste time speculating on whatever thought you might have had at that time." (You wrote that too, right? ) ;)


I did not and still do not understand the purpose of your post. I will not engage in speculation of the purpose of your post. I stated that and nothing more. Your post seemed to be sarcastic and without a point, in short, a troll.  So far you haven't done anything to change my impression.
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2007, 08:43:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Yep I wrote that. Now since you have taken it out of context I'll try to place it back there. We have an assessment (note that is an assessment and not proof) that the weapons program has been suspended. Suspended implies it has been stopped but not done away with. You still with me here? A suspended program is capable of being reinstated, not from the beginning but from the point of where it was frozen or suspended. Note that I did not say it would be, is being or has been reinstated. I just made an observation not a prediction.

"Our time" being the time period of the suspended program. This is a diplomatic move on the part of iran's leadership. There is nothing preventing them from changing their mind. That means that the "our time" situation would be over. Kind of like what happened to Chamberlain. Please note I did not state that is what they are planning, have planned or are doing at this time. Again it is an observation.


I understand you have a theory. I very much understand that.

So the difference between a fear motivated statement, though, and a one not motivated by fear is "observation" versus evidence?

That's where my own understanding of your .... well stated conclusion ... falls short.

Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
I did not and still do not understand the purpose of your post. I will not engage in speculation of the purpose of your post. I stated that and nothing more. Your post seemed to be sarcastic and without a point, in short, a troll.  So far you haven't done anything to change my impression.


As you haven't mine, apparently. You've told me you're misunderstood ... by me. You've told me I'm incapable of making myself understood .... by you.

Guess that must be irreconcilable .... until I just nod yes and agree or something. :D

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2007, 08:54:32 PM »
Bush during an October press conference...

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So I've told people that if you're interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from have the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. I take the threat of Iran with a nuclear weapon very seriously. And we'll continue to work with all nations about the seriousness of this threat. Plus we'll continue working the financial measures that we're in the process of doing. In other words, I think -- the whole strategy is, is that at some point in time, leaders or responsible folks inside of Iran may get tired of isolation and say, this isn't worth it. And to me, it's worth the effort to keep the pressure on this government.


This is 3 months AFTER he was told the threat was suspended 4 years ago. But he still rattles the sabres and mentions World War 3.

Our President is a menace. He has obliterated our security and our standing in the world community. He is a liar about IMPORTANT things like war and intelligence. Anyone who can honestly support this idiot is beyond drinking the koolaid. They've relinquished their brains.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2007, 08:56:12 PM »
did dismantling their "Nuclear Weapons program" in 03 include handing over dirty bomb making materials to various islamic cheekbones groups who'd actually be their wmd?
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2007, 09:00:08 PM »


"He's still a great president... it's only a flesh wound"

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2007, 09:01:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
my own understanding of your .... well stated conclusion ... falls short.
 


You should have just left it with the above. The only conclusion I can draw from this exchange is that your sole purpose is to be a troll. Fine, the discussion is over.
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Offline Tango

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Is Bush ok?
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2007, 09:01:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
It's a further stretch, though, to conclude they have ICBM technology advanced enough to launch a warhead past a nation on their border (as Tango seems to fear).


I never said anything about them using a missile. It would be far easier to ship it in, than shoot it.

But go on ahead and keep your head in the ground. It seems to work for the Ostrichs as well.
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Offline Tumor

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« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2007, 09:04:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
oh my, its that dumb little old Bushes fault, again.  

The only thing this story does is reaffirm my increasing distrust of our combined intelligence community.

In fact, when I first heard this story I thought of insider politics at work rather than meaningful national intelligence coming to meaningful conclusions.  

We shall see, as we always do.

Yeah, Bush is a dolt but so are the people that blame him for every perceived ill in government, bunch of losers.


Yeager...  I love you man!! :eek:
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2007, 09:09:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
You [not I] should have just left it with the above. The only conclusion I can draw from this exchange is that your sole purpose is to be a troll. Fine, the discussion is over.


Fine. You're done. Again. Because if someone doesn't agree with you or challenges your assessment (ala "refuses" to agree with ["understand"] your stance even when rephrased somewhat) ... they're a troll. Oy. I didn't have a problem with you doing that the first time. ;):aok :noid

Offline Slash27

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« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2007, 09:18:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Yeah, Bush is a dolt but so are the people that blame him for every perceived ill in government, bunch of losers.


Makes you wonder what there will be to talk about after '08:D

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2007, 09:20:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tango
I never said anything about them using a missile. It would be far easier to ship it in, than shoot it.

But go on ahead and keep your head in the ground. It seems to work for the Ostrichs as well.


Yeah. Far easier. Cause multi-billion dollar shipping companies who's fortunes are tied to their relationship with U.S. ports (same for airlines and U.S. airports) either don't check shipments (cargo) or don't cooperate with the U.S. assuring their shipments are safe in U.S. ports (and airports). Especially in the Persian Gulf area regarding fissionable materials originating in Iran.

I like Clancy novels as much as the next guy but my reading such and envisioning scenarios involves less tunnel vision and more practicality.

:D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 09:42:42 PM by Arlo »

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2007, 09:40:48 PM »
There's more to this particular report than meets the eye

Quote
Iran and North Korea are the states of most concern to us. The United States’ concerns about Iran are shared by many nations, including many of Iran’s neighbors. Iran is continuing to pursue uranium enrichment and has shown more interest in protracting negotiations and working to delay and diminish the impact of UNSC sanctions than in reaching an acceptable diplomatic solution. We assess that Tehran is determined to develop nuclear weapons--despite its international obligations and international pressure. This is a grave concern to the other countries in the region whose security would be threatened should Iran acquire nuclear weapons.

link
THAT statement was made this summer by one of the folks who helped craft the report--Deputy Director of Analysis Thomas Fingar....WHAT transpired in 4 months to have this big a change in their assessment?
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2007, 09:50:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
WHAT transpired in 4 months to have this big a change in their assessment?


I can guess that it doesn't involve older data, lack of reassessment, specifically looking for less accurate field data gathering methods or dispensing with better contacts. But that's a guess. Probably trollish.

Maybe it's a conspiracy. :cool: