Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Rich46yo
Laz your babbling nonsense. You got this "cop thing" going so im going to bow out of this thread.

                            Ive been some kind of Policeman since I was 18 yo and signed up for the War corp. Im sorry, but when it comes to Police stuff you dont know if your tail end is punched or drilled. I would hazard that your also lieing about getting shot at and having a gun pulled on you.

                          Maybe we'll find our stride on another thread that has nothing to do with cop obsessions. That is if you post in any other kind.

                        Until then....goodby.

  Lazs wins. Rich just couldn't get him to admit that cops are supermen and all civilans are sheep.  Lazs 1, supercop 0.

I have to admit, Rich is the only cop I've ever had a conversation with who felt he was on some kind of pedestal compared to the public, well except Xmarine.  Those two have changed my mind on one thing:  I used to say that I have a lot of respect for cops.  Now I'll have to say I have a lot of respect for most  cops.

[storch]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
  Lazs wins. Rich just couldn't get him to admit that cops are supermen and all civilans are sheep.  Lazs 1, supercop 0.

I have to admit, Rich is the only cop I've ever had a conversation with who felt he was on some kind of pedestal compared to the public, well except Xmarine.  Those two have changed my mind on one thing:  I used to say that I have a lot of respect for cops.  Now I'll have to say I have a lot of respect for most  cops.

I have to agree with you steve

[lazs2]

rich.. have you been shot at?  have you been in the same room when someone was shot?

I am sorry that you think I am a liar.   I can only tell you that I am not.  I seen a guy get shot in the head right next to me.   I have been shot at while in a house..   both times the situation was over before I had to shoot anyone.  

But let me ask you this..  do you think that there may be some slight difference in tactics needed for say...  a uniformed policeman and a civilian dressed person with a concealed weapon in a mall where a shooter is loose and people are running every which way?

Do you think that the shooter may react differently to a uniformed officer than to  just one more civilian?  

What is your "tactic" in such a situation?  you are 50 yards away.. he sees you.. you have a glock in .40 and he has an ar15 or .308

your body armor is not gonna stop those rounds.  you are gonna instantly be the most important thing in his life.   he will be ignoring the others.

What does your training tell you to do?

I have found when talking to cops that some are easy going and reasonable and some are so wrapped up in themselves that they can take no criticism at all..

I am in no way trying to insult cops in general but the standards are lower every year.   Not all of em are good with or even like firearms.   I can believe you or I can believe the police instructors I talk to.

lazs

[lazs2]

And.. I don't really blame rich for defending his fellow officers and for having faith in his training.

I respect that as I respect anyone who has to do such a job.   I freely admit that I could not do his job no matter how much training...  I haven't the temperment or patientce to do so.  

I really do see how bad it must be to put yourself in harms way with a big target painted on you.. to stop cars in the middle of the night never knowing who is really in the car.. to break up fights.. all sorts of things.. the action for a cop has to happen really fast and they have to react quickly and correctly..

They not only have to win but they have to be right... I do not envy them their job and thank you rich for your service.

I do not want this to be about cop bashing or me an rich.   I would be thankful to see him show up in a bad situation.

I am just saying that he can't be everywhere and even when he is... he has some limitiations that we have put on him.  

I also knew a lot of guys who hated cops.   I really never did even tho I was on the other side for a few decades.   I know two guys who had no respect for cops at all and both were killed in shootouts.   neither will be missed much.  neither was half as good as they thought they were.   rich.. one was named pulley and he shot it out on the main drag in the 80's if you want to look it up.   Never liked that guy.   he pulled a gun on me once.

I believe that I was out of line talking about police training and will admit that for the situations they most encounter.. it is good.   I don't say that it works in every situation for civilians is all.  

lazs

[Slash27]

Originally posted by Rich46yo
Laz your babbling nonsense. You got this "cop thing" going so im going to bow out of this thread.

                            Ive been some kind of Policeman since I was 18 yo and signed up for the War corp. Im sorry, but when it comes to Police stuff you dont know if your tail end is punched or drilled. I would hazard that your also lieing about getting shot at and having a gun pulled on you.

                          Maybe we'll find our stride on another thread that has nothing to do with cop obsessions. That is if you post in any other kind.

                        Until then....goodby.

cop out






get it?

[Slash27]

Originally posted by lazs2
and.. facts are facts.    the cops did not stop any of these shootings.  they never do.. the cops get their and get "set up" with "tactics" way too late to do anyone any good...  

lazs

makes alot of sense doesnt it?

[lazs2]

This is not the way I want this to go..  I do believe that cops have a really rough job and I am constantly impressed by their dedication and courage and patience.

I believe that they are trained well for the situations that they encounter.  I believe that they do the best they can.   I do not think I could do their job better than they can and would love to see em around when bad things happen.

Problem is.. they can't be everywhere all the time.   I also think that they are at somewhat of a disadvantage.. I would not want to be a uniformed target.   I believe that CCW holders have it easy by comparison.    In something like a shooting at a mall.. the real targets are gonna be the unlucky and any cop who is there.    

lazs

[Tigeress]

Rich has a lot of good points and I hope he chooses to overlook the overlookable.

If this conversation amongst you all were going on say... over at Steve's house over a few beers it would be easier... there is no way for people to see the real personalities in play in print here without a lot of time invested.

I am sure you didn't mean to run him off Lazs...

TIGERESS

[SteveBailey]

I'm not so sure, Tigress.  To me, Rich has an elitist attitude  where he seems to think cops are the only people capable of dealing with stressful, violent situations. My view may be incorrect, but it's the conclusion I drew based on his thoughts in this thread. I couldn't stomach his arrogance for any length of time.  He has insulted both Lazs and I, calling us both liars. Somehow, he seems to think that only cops have been in dangerous situations where there was either deadly violence or the potential for it.

If I somehow misinterpreted his repeated remarks that support his apparent views, I'd love to hear about it.  I'd be perfectly happy if Rich were a great guy who respected those he is sworn to protect and serve.  I just don't see any evidence of that.  All I see is a guy who was given a badge and seems to think it entitles him to look upon the masses as unable to fend for themselves.

To know just how wrong Richh is about this, he could look up hundreds, if not thousands of instances where normal citizens, without police training, put down the bad guy.  He could try with a simple google seach.  Heck, look up Northfield Minnesota.

[Tigeress]

I just like to see people bury the hachet. We all have more things in common than not.

It's up to him... but he left the door open.

You once helped me, Steve. If you know what I mean.
I wont forget it... hugs

TIGERESS

[lazs2]

I don't know.. I think that I was the one who started it.   I went on about the standards for cops these days and how I felt that so many were not good shots or even liked guns.

I made a generalization that is obviously not true for the guys he knows and he got defensive and I don't blame him.    I will only say that what I was saying was true for the instructors in my area.. which is, admittedly a small sample.

I am just glad to see that a woman with a ccw stopped the slaughter at the church..  I think in light of what happened it does vindicate us both.. seems that one ccw guy froze but.. another guy who didn't have a gun asked him to give it to him.. he did what I would have done.. he was behind a column and, although he didn't get the gun and get the chance to take the long shot.. he at least did shout and break the gunmans "rythmn" and allow the woman to get the shot.  

Anyone can freeze and anyone can be a hero.   I don't really like to be called a liar but.. serves me right.. shoulda kept my mouth shut.  weird stuff happened back then.. it would really sound outlandish if I told you the guy next to me got shot in the head with a 38 and it... pretty much bounced off.. all this was at arms reach... the flash was right in my face it seemed.. the guy who got shot was reaching for a 30-30 and managed to grab it after he got shot and break it over the shooters face.  I managed to draw and the friend just put up his hands...  I didn't shoot anyone.    There were 3 other people in the room.. everyone acted differently.  The guy who got shot. it didn't even look too bad.   We took him to emergency and told em we were cutting up a car with a torch and a piece of metal sprung out and caught him in the head.  the other guys took their partner off.. he didn't look too good.. heard later he was fine..concussion and a bunch of stitches.  

Another time... same guy.. I grew up with him.. pres of the banshees..  him and another guy were at his house.. I was on the porch.. the other guy had hit his girlfriend around and was walking out of the front door.   I heard her scream and the words "shoot you" just as he started running.. Pop pop pop... one round hit the railing I was leaning on and then he was flying over the rail..more pops.. and I seen her arm with this tiny little baby .25 .. I grabbed her arm but noticed the slide was locked back with some brass stovepiped and she just dropped the thing anyway.  

Not a big deal.... neither one a mall shooting.. but... hell.. I call it shooting.  was damn scary enough for me.   My hands were shaking afterwards.. but they shake after I lose it in the Healey sometimes too.   I wasn't gonna shoot a guy with his hands up and I sure as hell wasn't going to shoot some woman with a jammed .25.  

These things happened 30 years ago.. maybe now I would run screaming from the room... don't see the percentage in it tho.

lazs

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Tigeress

It's up to him... but he left the door open.


TIGERESS

Nah, Rich put me on ignore... that's pretty much a closed door.

 I don't mind though.  A week after this thread dies, if I remember it at all,  I'll simply chalk it up to just us guys voicing things we were passionate about and blow it off.  This attitude has bitten me in the arse a time or two though as others hold grudges longer.

To me it was a spirited debate and not much more.  The exception being Maverick of course.  I muted him not because I dislike the guy; that's simply not the case.  I harbor no ill will towards him beyond the passion of our discussion.   I muted him simply because I was unable to communicate with him and I wish to avoid future frustration.

[Maverick]

Now that was a fine example of pot and kettle.

[john9001]

Tigeress, the peacemaker.

[Bingolong]

Originally posted by lazs2
bingie...How would it deter crime at all?   we had a program that made everyone sign for ammo for 20 years... in that time... Not one... nada.. crime was solved using this "sensible" law.

The micro stamping is no sweat off me.. I reload and I have revolvers.   What would stop me from leaving brass from 6 different guns at a crime scene.. all micro stamped..  let the police do the expensive tail chasing... I am afraid that it is an expensive idea that makes no sense.   the only sense it makes is what they really want.. to make guns more expensive.. to keep em out of the hands of the poor...  poor people don't need guns like the rest of us I guess huh?

I don't know what your point is on the school shootings.   If fully one quarter were stopped.... that would mean... no further shooting.. This was accomplished by civilians with guns.. imagine if the civilians were actually allowed to have guns.   You trust these saint like teachers to shield the kids with their body and soak up bullets but you don't trust em to have a firearm?  

Your list proves one thing.. "gun free zones" is not working.   It was a bad idea... time to try something else.

lazs

How many are acceptable?
It's illegal for them to have guns period.

I hope it goes too semi-auto rifles too and Laz I don't trust the teachers to teach let alone have guns. Why don't you ask the Teachers if thats what they want? .
Each generation the gun gets more and more distant most kids are not taught by their fathers anymore. There shown bye gang members or other friends. The gangs don't buy the guns from a store.
Everyone on my block as a kid had a BB gun of some type. Don't see that much any more. Toy guns sale have dropped to almost nothing. My father was so proud when he gave me my 1st .22 I thought we was the coolest dad. I think I was 10. I had fired the .30 carbine all ready, but this was "mine" my 1st real "gun". I was 31 when all 3 were stolen. Now'a'days it is easier not to own one, for me any way, I don't worry about the kids finding it, don't have to clean it, don't have to worry about it getting stolen. If its in the safe what good is it? It's less expense, I have better things to do and  spend my money on, but still laz I don't worry if you own one or ten as long as you do good buy them.