Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?

[lazs2]

guppy.. that is fine so long as you don't dismiss the real danger of bad people trying to do bad things to others simply by saying "well, lazs thinks the way he does because he has had an unusual life"

the point is that all of us have a pretty good chance of being victims of a violent crime at some point in our lives.. more so than say...  that we will be saved by a seatbelt.    It is risk assesment first and foremost and...  individuality.. the feeling that it is not only my right but... my duty to myself and mankind to not allow the bad guys to win without a fight.

lazs

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Mav, FBBone,

What I'm trying to get my mind around is the notion of whether having the security blanket of a firearm on a person creates a freedom to use them.

I'm sure you guys have probably been around the gun boards like I have, and there is always that element that is just lying in wait for the shtf scenario so they can go 'tactical'.

I'm not disagreeing that 99% of the gunowners out there are law abiding folks.  I'd consider myself one of them.  

And I'm not telling you it's right or wrong.  I don't know.  There is just something about the notion of folks lugging their hand guns around that bothers me.  Which is why I'm asking.

Hi Guppy,

These are the same questions to an extent I started looking at during correspondence on the Pink Thread.

I had never considered owning a gun for real (unlike you who have guns) much less considered all the implications of carrying one with me.

Since those conversations on the Pink thread and during this thread, it has been opening my eyes wider and wider making me seriously look at this from as many angles as come to the surface.

For the first time in my life I started imagining carrying one with me and it has made me understand what removing a lifetime sense of total vulnerability would feel like. I felt exhilarated and almost like a high from being relieved of fear.

At first my thoughts went towards anger and payback for being forced into a lifetime of such a reality but that startled me as it's a reverse bully mentality... not a good thing. That shook me up some.

It has settled out a lot more since then... much more towards a sense of serious responsibility for possession of the means to make people dead if I so choose; probably not unlike what a rookie police officer feels on her first patrols.

I am now acquiring a very sober respect for the serious implications and considerations carrying a gun brings with it and systematically learning and exploring it.

FWIW, I think you are asking the right questions.

TIGERESS

Edit: In my view... No One who has an anger management problem should ever carry a gun.

[Toad]

Originally posted by lazs2
my duty to myself and mankind to not allow the bad guys to win without a fight.

lazs

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

- attributed to Edmund Burke

[Bingolong]

Originally posted by lazs2
To answer the one question about shootings..  fully one quarter of all school shootings were stopped by a civilian with a firearm before the police arrived.
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/NROMultipleVicShootings305.htmllazs

This has stuck with me for a day or two now
Lets see:
You say 1/4 of school shootings were stopped bye gun toting civilians was that before or after the crime was commited?

This is a major list I could find it does bye no means list all school related viloent deaths.

The .pdf at the bottom The National School Safety Center's Report on
School Associated Violent Deaths does, best that I can tell. Maybe Tigress could find more.
It includes stabings hangings etc but bye far the most amount are shootings 441>331 shootings since 1992.


Major U.S. school shootings in the last 10 years:

1- Greenville, Texas. March 7, 2007. A 16-year-old male high school student fatally shot himself while in the band hallway area of the school around 7:15 a.m. No other students were injured. More than 100 parents rushed to the school to remove their students.

2- Tacoma, Wash. Jan. 3, 2007. An 18-year-old male high school student was arrested for shooting and killing a 17-year-old male student at their school. The suspect allegedly shot the victim in the face and then stood over him, firing twice more.

3- Springfield Township, Pa. Dec. 12, 2006. A 16-year-old male high school shot and killed himself with an AK-47 assault rifle in the hallway of his high school. The student, reportedly despondent over his grades, had the gun concealed in a camouflage duffle bag and fired one round in the ceiling to warn other students to get out of the way before committing suicide.

4- Katy, Texas. Oct. 17, 2006. A 16-year-old male high school sophomore committed suicide by shooting himself with a handgun in the school's cafeteria courtyard.

5- Nickel Mines Pa., Oct. 2, 2006. A truck driver walked into a one-room Amish schoolhouse with two rifles, a semi-automatic handgun, and 600 rounds of ammunition, selected all the female students, and shot them execution-style, killing five and seriously wounding six. The man then shot himself, apparently having left suicide notes beforehand.

6- Cazenovia, Wis., Sept. 29, 2006. A student walked into a rural school with a pistol and a rifle and shot the principal several times, critically injuring him.

7- Bailey, Colo. Sept. 27, 2006. A lone gunman enters a high school and holds six female students hostage, sexually assaults them, kills one of them, and then himself after a four-hour standoff.

8- Pittsburgh, Pa. Sept. 17, 2006. Five Duquesne University basketball players are wounded after a shooting on campus after a dance. One of the two shooters was allegedly upset that his date had talked to one of the athletes.

9- Hillsborough, N.C. Aug. 30, 2006. After shooting his father to death, a student open fires at his high school, injuring two students. Deputies found guns, ammunition, and homemade pipe bombs in the student's car. The student had emailed Columbine High's principal, telling him that it was "time the world remembered" the shootings at Columbine.

10- Essex, Vt. Aug. 24, 2006. A gunman shoots five people, killing two of them, in a rampage through two houses and an elementary school, before wounding himself.

11- Red Lake Indian Reservation, Minn. March 21, 2005. The worst school-related shooting incident since the Columbine shootings in April of 1999. Ten killed (shooter killed nine and then himself) and seven injured in rampage by high school student.

12- Cumberland City, Tenn. March 2, 2005. School bus driver shot and killed while driving a school bus carrying approximately 20 students by a 14 year-old student who had been reported to administrators by the driver for chewing tobacco on the bus.

13- Nine Mile Falls, Wash. Dec. 10, 2004. A 16-year-old high school junior committed suicide at the high school's entryway. A canister holding fireworks, shotgun shells, and rifle cartridges was found in a backpack belonging to the student.

14- Joyce, Wash. March 17, 2004. A 13-year-old student shot and killed himself in a school classroom where about 20 other students were present. The boy reportedly brought a .22-caliber rifle hidden in a guitar case and pulled it out during the 10 a.m. class.

15- Philadelphia, Pa. Feb. 11, 2004. A 10-year-old student was shot in the face and died after being shot outside a Philadelphia elementary school. A 56 year-old female school crossing guard was also shot in the foot as she tried to scurry children across the street as bullets were flying and children were on the playground.

[Bingolong]

cont.
16- Washington, D.C. Feb. 2, 2004. A 17-year-old male high school student died after being shot several times and another student was injured after shots were fired near the school's cafeteria.

17- Henderson, Nev. Jan. 21, 2004. Gunman shoots and kills a hostage in his car on school campus. The gunman was allegedly looking for his ex-girlfriend as he searched the school full of children in an after-school program.

18- Cold Spring, Minn. Sept. 24, 2003. Two students shot and killed by a 15 year-old boy at Rocori High School.

19- Red Lion, Pa. April 24, 2003. Principal of Red Lion Area Junior High is fatally shot in the chest by a 14-year-old student, who then committed suicide, as students gather in the cafeteria for breakfast.

20- New Orleans, La. April 14, 2003. One 15-year-old killed and three students wounded at John McDonough High School by gunfire from four teenagers in a gang-related shooting.

21- October 7, 2002. Bowie, Md. A 13-year-old by was shot and critically wounded by the DC-area sniper outside Benjamin Tasker Middle School.
- New York, N.Y. Jan. 15, 2002. Two students at Martin Luther King Junior High School in Manhattan were seriously wounded when an 18-year-old opened fire in the school.

22- Caro, Mich.. Nov. 12, 2001. A 17-year-old student took two hostages and the Caro Learning Center before killing himself.

23- Ennis, Texas. May 15, 2001. A 16-year-old sophomore upset over his relationship with a girl, took 17 hostages in English class, and shot and killed himself and the girl.

24- Gary, Ind. March 30, 2001. 17-year-old expelled from Lew Wallace High School kills classmate.

25- Granite Hills, Calif. March 22, 2001. One teacher and three students wounded by a student at Granite Hills school.

26- Willamsport, Pa. March 7, 2001. Classmate wounded by a 14-year-old girl, in the cafeteria of Bishop Newuman High School.
- Santee, Calif. March 5, 2001. A 15-year-old student killed two fellow students and wounded 13 others, while firing from a bathroom at Santana High School in San Diego County.

27- Baltimore, Md. Jan. 17, 2001. 17-year-old student shot and killed in front of Lake Clifton-Eastern High School.
- New Orleans, La. Sept. 26, 2000. Two students wounded in a gun fight at Woodson Middle School.

28- Lake Worth, Fla. May 26, 2000. A 13-year-old honor killed his English teacher, Barry Grunow, on the last day of classes after the teacher refused to let him talk to two girls in his classroom.

29- Mount Morris Township, Mich. Feb. 29, 2000. A 6-year-old boy shot and killed a 6-year-old girl at Buell Elementary School with a .32 caliber handgun.

30- Fort Gibson, Okla. Dec. 6, 2000. A 13-year-old boy, armed with a handgun, opened fire outside Fort Gibson Middle school, wounding four classmates.

31- Deming, N.M. Nov. 19, 1999. 12-year-old boy came to school dressed in camouflage and shoots 13-year-old girl with a .22 caliber as students were returning from lunch.

32- Conyers, Georgia. May 20, 1999. 15-year-old sophomore opens fire with a rifle and a handgun on Heritage High School students arriving for classes, injuring six.

33- Littleton, Colo. April 20, 1999. Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 23 before killing themselves at Columbine High School

34- Springfield, Ore. May 21, 1998. Two teenagers were killed and more than 20 people hurt when a teenage boy opened fire at a high school after killing his parents. Kip Kinkel, 17, was sentenced to nearly 112 years in prison.

35- Fayetteville, Tenn. May 19, 1998. Three days before his graduation, an honor student opened fire at a high school, killing a classmate who was dating his ex-girlfriend. Jacob Davis, 18, was sentenced to life in prison.

36- Jonesboro, Ark. March 24, 1998. Two boys, ages 11 and 13, fired on their middle school from nearby woods, killing four girls and a teacher and wounding 10 others. Both boys were later convicted of murder and can be held until age 21.

37- West Paducah, Ky. Dec. 1, 1997. Three students were killed and five wounded at a high school. Michael Carneal, then 14, later pleaded guilty but mentally ill to murder and is serving life in prison.

38- Pearl, Miss. Oct. 1, 1997. Sixteen-year-old Luke Woodham of fatally shot two students and wounded seven others after stabbing his mother to death. He was sentenced the following year to three life sentences.

Most of this was during the ban?

So if we take away a 1/4 = 28.5 you say maybe more 1/3  25.4 is 25 an exceptable amount?

Now put in with the chart below 331 school related shootings .
Now thats extremely low percentage granted but just what is exceptable? 1, 25, 50, 200?

http://www.schoolsafety.us/pubfiles/savd.pdf

These are the schools..... just the schools! I think its disgusting that any happen!

Additionally,  I hope all the states in the union adopt this technology.
In October 2007, Governor Schwarzenegger signed a first-of-its-kind microstamping law in Californa, AB 1471.
http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/local/california.shtml

and I dont care if shooting gets more expensive at this point it is just a hobby.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Bingolong
Additionally,  I hope all the states in the union adopt this technology.
In October 2007, Governor Schwarzenegger signed a first-of-its-kind microstamping law in Californa, AB 1471.

and I dont care if shooting gets more expensive at this point it is just a hobby.

This is for ID of spent shells.

I don't have a problem with it, I just wonder which shooting in your list would have been prevented with a microstamping?

[Bingolong]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
This is for ID of spent shells.

I don't have a problem with it, I just wonder which shooting in your list would have been prevented with a microstamping?

None, it might deter some crimes in the future and is a good tool to help with crimes that are committed. I suppose anything can be tampered with
but only law abiding citizens can bye guns of this type. So the tampering should be kept to a minimal, right? If the gun gets stolen it would be reported bye a law abiding person as well, right? It does not work on revolvers.

[lazs2]

bingie...How would it deter crime at all?   we had a program that made everyone sign for ammo for 20 years... in that time... Not one... nada.. crime was solved using this "sensible" law.

The micro stamping is no sweat off me.. I reload and I have revolvers.   What would stop me from leaving brass from 6 different guns at a crime scene.. all micro stamped..  let the police do the expensive tail chasing... I am afraid that it is an expensive idea that makes no sense.   the only sense it makes is what they really want.. to make guns more expensive.. to keep em out of the hands of the poor...  poor people don't need guns like the rest of us I guess huh?

I don't know what your point is on the school shootings.   If fully one quarter were stopped.... that would mean... no further shooting.. This was accomplished by civilians with guns.. imagine if the civilians were actually allowed to have guns.   You trust these saint like teachers to shield the kids with their body and soak up bullets but you don't trust em to have a firearm?  

Your list proves one thing.. "gun free zones" is not working.   It was a bad idea... time to try something else.

lazs

[lazs2]

and before you answer.. be aware that most ranges have brass an inch deep everywhere.. the bad guys just need to pick it up.  All nicely "microstamped" and regestered to dentists and lawyers and cops and little old ladies and maybe a construction worker or two.

It is a really dumb idea.   I will be shocked if it ever solves a crime... I will be shocked if it doesn't make law enforcements job harder and lead to a lot of tail chasing.

lazs

[Tigeress]

Seems to me, microstamping goes back to fundamental paranoia of guns in the hands of law abiding people instead of bad guys bent on committing violent crimes who will go to the trouble of getting around serial numbers and microstamping.

The shooter in Omaha could have cared less about microstamping... he wanted people to know who he was.

Non-mass murdering run of the mill bad guys will use stolen guns so why should they care either?

I think the only real deterrence to violent crime is to give the bad guys, who are mostly bullying cowards anyway, a quite serious reason to be paranoid... that being take downs of bad guys in the act of violent crime by ccw civilians defending themselves and others.

Bout time the bad guys got serious doses of justifiable paranoia.

TIGERESS

[Rich46yo]

Originally posted by lazs2
and.. I think it important to point out that with todays "equal opportunity"  hiring... there are many many cops who are not only afraid of guns but are worthless with one.. most recreational shooters would rank in the top ten for marksmanship against  the average cop.

I do believe a CCW holder should have a grasp of laws and be able to pass a test on same.

lazs

 
                             I dont think I ever met one who was "worthless" with one. And Ive known thousands. But, I guess I aint the expert some are.

                           Get yourself in a real shootout and you'll see how useful splitting those "X"'s at a nice safe range really is. I know because Ive been a very good range and competition shooter most of life and have the trophies to prove it.

                        Shooting pretty little groups in a range is actually way down on the list of factors that ensure survival in a gunfight.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Tigeress

I think the only real deterrence to violent crime is to give the bad guys, who are mostly bullying cowards anyway, a quite serious reason to be paranoid... that being take downs of bad guys in the act of violent crime by ccw civilians defending themselves and others.

Bout time the bad guys got serious doses of justifiable paranoia.

TIGERESS

That's damn sexy Tigress...

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Tigeress
I think the only real deterrence to violent crime is to give the bad guys, who are mostly bullying cowards anyway, a quite serious reason to be paranoid... that being take downs of bad guys in the act of violent crime by ccw civilians defending themselves and others.

Wow just when I thought I'd read it all. You really think 'civilians' should be dishing out justice on the streets? (there are a few hints in this thread as to why this would fail miserably by the way).

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Wow just when I thought I'd read it all. You really think 'civilians' should be dishing out justice on the streets? (there are a few hints in this thread as to why this would fail miserably by the way).

Vulcan,

I am not talking about vigilantism whatsoever.

I am not talking about patrolling the streets looking for crimes in progress nor passing judgment based on evident in a court nor handing out punishment.
 
Citizens can justifiably and legally defend themselves; we are not required by law, nor by our own human nature, to be victims.

Perhaps your concept of the word civilians is the problem you are having.

What is you concept of "civilians"?

TIGERESS

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
That's damn sexy Tigress...

Thanks, dear. But that was the last thing on my mind when I wrote it.

TIGERESS