Author Topic: Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?  (Read 7476 times)

Offline Tigeress

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2007, 03:59:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
FWIW Mav, I do not consider myself any more or less brave than your average white guy in the US but I have been held at gunpoint at about 5 feet by a person whom I was certain  was going to shoot me. I have also been in a fistfight where my opponent pulled a knife and tried to cut/stab me.  My point is, that to the degree I've just mentioned, I have been under the duress of violence and therefore know how I'd react.


On a business trip to my former company's Munich office some years ago we had to clear customs in Frankfurt.

Not understanding german and being herded to the ground near the wheels of the plane with the rest of the passengers and watching all of the baggage being unloaded on the ground near us, I started wandering around the opposite side of the growing pile to see if my bag was there.

A German soldier walked towards me with his machine gun pointed at my mid-section and he motioned with the barrel of his machine gun that I should move in the direction he was gestering, I learned first hand what it felt like to be on the "pointed at" end of a gun.

Then I observed the other passengers pulling luggage from the pile and understood... claim your bags here from the ground and proceed to customs; don't go too far away.

I will never forget that... as long as I live...

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 04:06:28 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Slash27

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Quote
Originally posted by Bingolong
btw

 a SKS can be full auto just like a m1 carbine can and it can hold as big as a clip you can find for it.  They make 50 round clips for it that I know.

http://www.rifletech.com/bullpup002.jpg




and?  Was a full auto used?

Offline B@tfinkV

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2007, 04:08:54 PM »
Munich is a nightmare.

me and jan after snowboarding in austria sitting in munich airport smoking a cig before the flight.

enter gestapo customs guys. 6'7" and beefy looking.


"you vill put of your cigs and come vis me"

"er....ok"

"can i see your passports"

shows passports

"why are you visiting munich airport?"

"we are looking to hire a speed boat"

"ok, now vee vill make you pay for that joke, englieesh swine"



we were lucky not to get full cavity search.

i hate munich airport.
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline Slash27

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2007, 04:11:51 PM »
Dont lie, you wanted the cavity search:D

Offline shamroc

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See Rule #7
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 01:17:58 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Tigeress

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2007, 04:24:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Tigress, this is incorrect.  You have the legal right to use deadly force in the protection of others from like force.

Edit:  Here is Nebraska's take on it :


I misunderstood Maverick it seems.

My thinking of hunting for bad guys would be driving around looking for a crime in progress so I could shoot a bad boy.

That, I believe to be illegal and I have no justification to do it.

Trying to get position and a gun solution on a maniac shooting people in a mall I am shopping at is not "hunting" in my view. It is not something I am trained to do but I would do my best to stop him while minimizing danger my fire might bring to his intended victims.

TIGERESS

Offline Scherf

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2007, 04:34:45 PM »
Phaser and Saxman win this thread.

Oh, and Slash.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Tigeress

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2007, 04:44:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
Munich is a nightmare.

me and jan after snowboarding in austria sitting in munich airport smoking a cig before the flight.

enter gestapo customs guys. 6'7" and beefy looking.


"you vill put of your cigs and come vis me"

"er....ok"

"can i see your passports"

shows passports

"why are you visiting munich airport?"

"we are looking to hire a speed boat"

"ok, now vee vill make you pay for that joke, englieesh swine"



we were lucky not to get full cavity search.

i hate munich airport.


dang...

I didn't have trouble in the Munich airport it was the Frankfurt airport but having a German soldier point a machine gun directly at me made all sorts of things swirl in my head.

Similar kind of thing... sorta... happened when I was on assignment in Osaka. I had a rental car and was out for a drive on a Saturday afternoon.

I am listening to the Japanese music on the car radio and looking at the road and country side and happened to glance in my rear view mirror.

OMG!!!! My brain literally hit the all out panic button!

There in my mirror was a big green Japanese Army truck with big red circle on its sloping hood and a Japanese soldier in his green uniform driving it and he was directly behind me looking straight at me!

I did manage to get myself under control but I was really thunder struck for a few moments.

I had never seen a Japanese soldier except in war movies... till then.

The soldier probably would have felt hurt had he known my initial reaction to him. I love the Japanese people and culture immensely.
 
TIGERESS
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 04:52:11 PM by Tigeress »

Offline acfireguy26

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2007, 04:54:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Phaser11
that you would run away when you are capable of intervening in the slaughter.

You don't know that. Everyone is capable of intervening. If everyone made a mad dash right at the shooter, sure 2 or 3 might get killed, but once there are 10 or 15 people smashing him he would be stoped.
 
There is nothing wrong when sometimes you have to run away, redeploy or whatever. We ALL have the means it stop a shooter, the only question is who's going first. If you think it might be you...or maybe it was you long ago that stoped a shooter by charging his position my hats off to you. Many heros have done so......and many heros have not.

I have asked some other vets here at work. What does a bullet sound like to you when it zips past your ear. Anyone?

Pease


I can tell you exactly what a bullet sounds like whizzing past your head. I can also tell you what it sounds like when it hits the chicken shield of your Hummers turret. Btw I can also tell you what an rpg sounds like when fired at you and whizzes by.

Offline Rich46yo

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2007, 04:56:33 PM »
A few times we've been pinned down by HP rifle fire. Its a far different feeling then being shot at by handguns, and Ive been shot at by both multiple times. One summer a street gang was always popping at us with 7.62x39, 3006, 5.56mm, and 30/30 rifle. We know what kind of rifles they were, besides knowing it when you hear it, cause the next morning when they got off their rock highs and fell asleep we would find all the shell casings around the project High Rises.

           Its easy to say that if you heard an AK, or SK, popping off how you would rush in, save the world, be the hero, sleep with the high school cheerleader you used to dream about as they draped medals over your chest during the parade in your honor. And its quite another to have the thing actually shooting at you. At which time that 9mm you bought to slay dragons with will begin to look like the little pea shooter it actually is.

        The Human instinct to survive is very strong. That's all Im saying.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Maverick

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2007, 05:02:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
FWIW Mav, I do not consider myself any more or less brave than your average white guy in the US but I have been held at gunpoint at about 5 feet by a person whom I was certain  was going to shoot me. I have also been in a fistfight where my opponent pulled a knife and tried to cut/stab me.  My point is, that to the degree I've just mentioned, I have been under the duress of violence and therefore know how I'd react.


Please tell me what the relationship of your post has to a mall shooting? You were not in a mall unaware of the location of the shooter surrounded by panicked people fleeing in all directions. Now tell me how you are going to search a mall with what was it 115 stores and an unknown number of holiday shoppers for an individual that you have no idea what he / she looks like with an unknown weapon. Perhaps with one or maybe more civilians who just might have the same idea. Tell me how you will tell them from the original gunman. Couple that with the fact that Police, who also have no idea what the shooter looks like including gender, won't be able to tell you from the shooter when they arrive. They will be looking for a person with a gun.

I'll state this again. If you are in the immediate vicinity of the shooter, can ID him as the shooter and are in a position to do so, go for it. Take him down. Going rambo and trying to find him from some other part of the mall is not just silly, it's stupid.

We'd all like to be the hero and stop this kind of situation from happening. The sad fact is that unless you are just right there in proper position in an ideal situation you are far better off getting as many folks out as you can. Oh and you'll have to convince them that you aren't the bad guy while doing it. Since they are worried about a person with a gun, there you are
with one in their face. Another conundrum. Hopefully you won't be scaring them back towards the shooter. Remember they are panicked, they are not thinking they are in full flight mode.
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Offline Shuckins

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2007, 05:37:55 PM »
Man...we are a LAZY society.  Although it's their own backsides on the line many people would rather trust someone else to protect it for them.

We're also GULLIBLE...to the extreme.  Because of the aforementioned laziness, many find it comforting to believe the government's claims that it, and only it, is capable of responding to lethal situations.  The truth is, according to a report I once saw, a policemen responding to a violent domestic disturbance is far more likely to mistakenly shoot an innocent civilian than a civilian would who was using deadly force to defend hearth and home under similar circumstances.

In this most recent incident, the police failed to arrive in time to do anything more than draw the chalk lines on the pavement.  According to recent accounts, the shooter was another psychologically disturbed individual that the authorities failed to control or contain.

In addition, our society is a HAND-WRINGING society.  We're immobilized by the fear of what "might" happen if we take matters into our own hands.  Rather than take that risk, many assume the demeanor of sheep.

It's ridiculous.

I still maintain, as I have in the past, that we need to learn to trust the judgement of our neighbors as well as our own.  CCPs should be readily available to any law-abiding citizen willing to take a course in handling deadly force in a crisis situation.  If some find that unpalatable, then how about allowing all ex-servicemen to carry.  Since putting a cop on every street corner isn't possible, this would be the next best thing.  They already have at least as much training in handling themselves when the crap hits the fan as most cops, and probably more.  We trust them to carry weapons overseas:  why not in their home country?  The Israelis do this, as do the Swiss.

It may never happen, for large sections of our society will only be content when we are all sheep.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 05:40:40 PM by Shuckins »

Offline APDrone

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2007, 05:47:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nefarious
I don't understand how he could smuggle a rifle of that size into his sweatshirt.

I own a WASR 10, I'm 6' even and I doubt I could fit it into a sweatshirt, a large jacket, maybe, without the magazine in it.

The SKS is longer than a WASR 10, So that would make it more difficult. Unless it was a folder, without a magazine in it (WASR or SKS), I dont see how it could be carried concealed into a public place with scores of people and security cameras. How could someone not see it?


Well, it was pointed out he was in fatigues, I guess.. even then, it's pretty cold up here this week.  Trench coats are quite common and being bundled up wouldn't get a second look.

I could probably strap a bazooka under some of the outerwear I've seen around here.

About the only way to really stop somebody from bringing in firearms to those places would be the installation of metal detectors at the entrances.  

Ugh.. not sure I want to see us go there..
AKDrone

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Offline FBBone

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2007, 05:54:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
How may Police do you think there are? There isn't enough manpower to put one on every corner and in front of every store just in  case something might happen.

Mav, my statement was "tongue in cheek", but you certainly helped prove my point.  Tigress' opening line.........
Quote
Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?

.......seemed to me to say that even though the citizens were able to get a CCW permit they did nothing to prevent the assault.  I personally know a few LEOs that believe that they should be the only people able to carry, that the general population are incompetent, and the police will take care of all the bad guys.  I know more than a few in the general population that feel the same way, so I figured I'd put my opposing question out there for discussion.  Really, I realize that there can't be a cop on every corner, I just don't understand the mentality of someone that would say I shouldn't be able to carry a firearm to  defend myself, thats what the police are for.

Offline FBBone

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Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2007, 05:58:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
then how about allowing all ex-servicemen to carry.  Since putting a cop on every street corner isn't possible, this would be the next best thing.  They already have at least as much training in handling themselves when the crap hits the fan as most cops, and probably more.  We trust them to carry weapons overseas:  why not in their home country?  The Israelis do this, as do the Swiss.

Well, I'd still have to rely on someone to protect my family and me, no thanks.  I'd rather just carry my own.