Author Topic: Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?  (Read 7478 times)

Offline SIG220

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 694
Quote
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
That depends' on Nebraska state law-If there are minors in the house, what are that state's statute's? They may not actually require weapons' locked up.


That would apply to any criminal prosecution.   Even if the state law did not require them to be locked up, they could still possibly face a liability in civil court.  People have certainly been sued for issues much more minor than this.

People tend to get very upset when a family member dies.  And the United States has far more attorneys than any other nation on earth.   There are many lawyers actively looking for cases to represent across the country.

SIG 220

Offline shamroc

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 183
Quote
Originally posted by KgB
Let me guess,you want me to give you link on how to convert AK47?
Have you lost your mind?
The  difference between legal version of AK47 and full auto is that hammer in legal version locks after each round is fired,much like semi-automatic selector setting,requiring the trigger to be released and depressed again for the next shot.By removing(or grinding off) that pin or whatever the hell you call it you'll stuck with only full-automatic setting,its purely mechanical.
Blindfold disassembling and assembling of AK47 was in USSR high school program.


KgB - the myth of "filing down" the firing pin of a semi-auto AK47 to convert it to full auto is an urban legend.  Other variations of this is to somehow insert a "twist tie" into the works to make the conversion complete.

It is 100% untrue.  It's a common myth pushed by the Gun Control Lobby in an attempt to ban all semi-auto firearms.

To convert a semi-auto AK47 to fully auto entails replacing several major components (components that are highly restricted and not readily available in the USA).  You also have to know what you are doing (aka a well trained/experienced gunsmith).

It is not something a layperson can do via magic internet-instructions.

And yes, most AK47 derivatives are extremely easy to field strip and maintain.  It's a fine, reliable, inexpensive, hard hitting and rugged firearm - albeit not that accurate due to the fact that it has very loose tolerances and it has a big heavy action that produces massive recoil.

What bothers me most about that weapon is it's popularity portrayed as a weapon designed by the "Soviet Regime" to bring down the "West".  In reality, it was designed to be a commoner's rifle to keep the Nazi's from coming back.
 
shamroc
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 01:28:50 AM by shamroc »

Offline KgB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1238
Quote
Originally posted by shamroc
KgB - the myth of "filing down" the firing pin of a semi-auto AK47 to convert it to full auto is an urban legend.  Other variations of this is to somehow insert a "twist tie" into the works to make the conversion complete.

It is 100% untrue.  It's a common myth pushed by the Gun Control Lobby in an attempt to ban all semi-auto firearms.

To convert a semi-auto AK47 to fully auto entails replacing several major components (components that are highly restricted and not readily available in the USA).  You also have to know what you are doing (aka a well trained/experienced gunsmith).

It is not something a layperson can do via magic internet-instructions.

And yes, most AK47 derivatives are extremely easy to field strip and maintain.  It's a fine, reliable, inexpensive, hard hitting and rugged firearm - albeit not that accurate.

What bothers me most about that weapon is it's popularity portrayed as a weapon designed by the "Soviet Regime" to bring down the "West".  In reality, it was designed to be a commoner's rifle to keep the Nazi's from coming back.
 
shamroc

I disagree,however i cannot prove wrong.So plz accept my apologies for ending this argument.
"It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."-Aristotle

Offline shamroc

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 183
Quote
Originally posted by KgB
I disagree,however i cannot prove wrong.So plz accept my apologies for ending this argument.


How about I buy you a Stoli and we can call it even ? :)

shamroc

Offline SD67

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3218
Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #124 on: December 07, 2007, 01:33:04 AM »
Bring back the Gibbet!
9GIAP VVS RKKA
You're under arrest for violation of the Government knows best act!
Fabricati diem, punc
Absinthe makes the Tart grow fonder

Offline KgB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1238
Quote
Originally posted by shamroc
How about I buy you a Stoli and we can call it even ? :)

shamroc

Actually Stoli is like a Jet fuel,its horrible.Would you be interested in Gray goose?:aok
"It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."-Aristotle

Offline shamroc

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 183
Quote
Originally posted by KgB
Actually Stoli is like a Jet fuel,its horrible.Would you be interested in Gray goose?:aok


Works for me Comrade ! :aok
(and who says there's no chance for world peace)
Shamroc

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Re: Re: Re: Re: Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #127 on: December 07, 2007, 02:45:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by shamroc
By definition, even if it was a semi-auto version of an AK-47, it wouldn't be an Assault Rifle (the selectable full auto fire is gone, which is a pre-requisite to be considered an Assault Rifle).  

For the record it was a SKS Carbine.  It is neither capable of full automatic fire, and it does NOT have a detachable magazine (another Assault Rifle pre-requisite).   I know I know... to the dead, what difference does it make ?

That's what I mean by the media inventing facts to sensationalize political agendas...  I've seen some foreign media describe the weapon as a "machine gun" which are "readily available in the USA to anyone".

BTW it was also stolen.

shamroc


Never bump fired an AK before?  My son was an AK fanatic.  I learned more about the things from him then i thought possible.  He had a SAR1, then an AK103, then a Polish underfolder, and then an AK74.  All semi Auto of course.  Very fun to shoot.  The 74 is probably the nicest shooting of them.

But lets be honest here.  They look nasty.  There is nothing ordinary semi-auto rifle about them.  And I have two of his now since he passed away to go with my 2 AR-15s so it's not like I'm anti shooting.  Lets just not undersell what they are.

SKS most definately can be adapted to a 30 round magazine.  You can buy them just about anywhere.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline SIG220

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 694
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #128 on: December 07, 2007, 03:22:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35


SKS most definately can be adapted to a 30 round magazine.  You can buy them just about anywhere.


This website has several detachable mags for the SKS available for sale, all the way up to 40 rounds:

http://www.tickbitesupply.com/sks.html

My son just bought an SKS.  However, I do not believe that he plans to commit mass murder.   I already bought him an AR-15 for his 21st birthday last year.

SIG 220

Offline sgt203

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #129 on: December 07, 2007, 04:58:30 AM »
Most states including mine (Pennsylvania) allow in the laws for the use of deadly force in not only the protection of yourself but others as well.

Do do otherwise is simply idiotic.

Anyone with a concealed carry permit should KNOW the laws pertaining to a citizens right to use deadly force. If they do not simply they should not be carrying a firearm.

Maverick I understand your point and it has merit. Police train for situations like this constantly. I know in Pa every officer in the State has had what is called active shooter training. This came about after the incident at Columbine High School. Police are trained to deploy as a squad 3-5 guys and how to move tactically towards an active shooter.

Does John Q Public have the training necessary to combat a situation like this one. Normally no, unless they have prior training.

However for those of who have posted who feel that the fact that you travel from one side of the mall to the other during a situation such as this in and of itself makes it an illegal use of deadly force, I assure you this is not the case.

The laws that pertain to the use of the element of retreat are applicable to the use of deadly force in the protection of PROPERTY ( In Pa anyhow) not in the defense of yourself or another whom you reasonably believe is in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury.

Though it may be tactically unsound for a single civilian to try and move towards an active shooter on their own to end a situation such as this it would by no means be against the law to do so.

For those that feel they would choose to do something to put an end to this type of incident I personally salute your bravery. For those that would choose not to I understand this as well.

However, to those that have the ability and opportunity (meaning it is right there and you are armed and have a clean shot) to end this but would choose not to out of fear of criminal or civil repurcussions I can only say I have no idea as to how you would be able to lay your head on your pillow each night and sleep knowing you could have pervented people from dying but chose to do nothing out of selfish fear.

I KNOW what I would have done but that I will keep to myself.

Offline Gman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3731
Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2007, 07:14:17 AM »
No matter what the situation is, unless you somehow end up behind a guy with a rifle and have an easy opportunity to engage him, using your CCW Handgun against a shoulder supported weapon being used by somebody bent on killing everything in sight is going to be an uphill struggle.

No easy answers.

And yes, an SKS can be adapted to take AK mags and drums.  I have done this myself.  I think that this idiot must have ran out of ammo and then killed himself because there couldn't have been any shortage of targets in the confusion.

It's the tool not the operator.  Any high powered rifle in a mall being used by somebody even half competent is going to wreck all kinds of havoc.

What surprises the hell out of me in the USA is that the FBI claims that there are hundreds if not thousands of "sleeper" AQ agents or what have you in the country.  What would happen if 50 of them went into 50 different elementary schools with an AK or SKS or what have you and a large supply of ammunition and shot 100 kids plus at each school.  Thinking for the "red" team, this type of operation would be easy compared to 9/11 and think of the aftershocks.  What would happen when one parent of a 2 parent working family decided that schools aren't safe for their kids and stayed home with the children and home schooled them, even for a short term.....economic crisis at the very least.

That's my nightmare scenario.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 07:20:06 AM by Gman »

Offline Tigeress

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1260
Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2007, 07:39:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by shamroc
It's terrifying, no question whatsoever, but I contend that Texans WOULD be more likely to shoot than Most People:

http://www.break.com/index/brave-neighbor-kills-2-robbers-911-call2.html

shamroc :aok


Yes, I certainly agree with you, Shamroc, and all this has tapped into something I rarely ever speak of.  

On the subject of the "spirit" of that which makes True Texans, Texans...

The core culture has not changed all that much from the early days when there was no "federal" government at all.

...Only the small strained Texas government which did the best it could and often times that wasn’t very much.

And, the harsh deadly land and weather which literally killed or forced its surviving peoples to place great need and value on looking out for the lives and welfare of each other and visitors.

In other words, if we didn't look out for each other no one else would thus we were good as dead ourselves.

In a way, true Texans are like one big extended family who are welcoming and hospitable to each other and visitors.

The deadly nature of the land and climate and the very thinly spread government of Texas, forced its people to either die or toughen up and be self-reliant early on and that spirit was, and still is, blended into the core of  true Texans even to this day.

When one visits Texas communities away from the big city culture, you are met with a big smile and handshake and welcoming and a kind of fathering/mothering nature to help you and protect you and keep you safe as if you were a long lost relative.

Would we shoot something or someone trying to kill you? Yes.

And, we expect the same from each other in return. That's how it is.

That is why I was totally floored no one stood up and took that shooter out and why I would have shot him dead myself to save others, given the means and opportunity to do so.

True Texans are not bred to live and die like a herd of sheep... not even us women.

I also think that is why many of us true Texas women are often attracted to men who are rugged and self-confident survivors and value them for who and what they are. That's probably why I have always had a thang for cowboy types in general... can't help it.

It isn't about pride unless you consider beating the odds something to be proud of; it's about core survival and pulling together.

This is also why I feel such a particular kinship for the Russian women who fought and died beside their brave men during WWII... what these men and women did side by side was about core survival on their own rugged and deadly lands fighting to simply survive and protect each other against a common enemy; pulling together to survive as a people.

It's the same kind of spirit in another time and place... half a world away.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 08:43:21 AM by Tigeress »

Offline shamroc

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 183
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2007, 09:07:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Never bump fired an AK before?  My son was an AK fanatic.  I learned more about the things from him then i thought possible.  He had a SAR1, then an AK103, then a Polish underfolder, and then an AK74.  All semi Auto of course.  Very fun to shoot.  The 74 is probably the nicest shooting of them.

But lets be honest here.  They look nasty.  There is nothing ordinary semi-auto rifle about them.  And I have two of his now since he passed away to go with my 2 AR-15s so it's not like I'm anti shooting.  Lets just not undersell what they are.

SKS most definately can be adapted to a 30 round magazine.  You can buy them just about anywhere.


Well I can't argue the notorious looks of the AK47 - it just looks mean...  Also has had innumerable photo ops with some of the most notorious people

ie:



And sorry about your son :(

shamroc

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13919
Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2007, 09:35:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
In the scenario with the three thugs beating the old woman, you don't really have a good choice among them.  The choice to intervene wasn't about being a badass, it was about saving the old woman from a beating that would no doubt cause her more harm that it would cause you.
You/I would still probably get stomped,  but could probably handle said beating better than the old woman.  I'm not talking about beating up the three bad guys... I'm talking about wading in and getting a beating(probably) so the old woman doesn't... get it? In other words, it's a crummy situation with no neatly wrapped solution, much like the mall scenario.

The analogy is that neither the old woman scenario or the mall scenario(where you are armed with a pistol) offer an ideal solution but that one may have to make a tough choice.  Is it really that hard for you to understand?

 

 You are assuming the guy is wandering through the mall while shooting people. you added this to the scenario.  In our scenario in Nebraska, the guy was basically stationary on a third floor balcony, overlooking the  mall area.  As I've been saying... there wouldn't be any hunting down to do.





Once again, you are trying to add a situation that did not happen. There was no old lady being mugged in that mall shooting. Please stay with the situation at hand. I'm not playing the "what if" game.

The guy did not stay stationary. According to the news as of last night he entered the mall went to the elevator and up to the 3rd floor. He then started shooting upon exiting the elevator inside the store and walked through the store. He also shot folks on the escalator still from the 3rd floor. He then went further through the store and finally offed himself. Total time from entry to the mall to killing himself was described as 6 minutes.

I'll try to state this again. Had there been a ccw holder in the area where they could ID the shooter and take action immediately then engaging him makes sense. If the ccw holder is not in that position then they are better off getting as many folks, including themselves away from the shooting area. Going hunting for the bad guy as an untrained civilian in a confused situation like that is a bad idea. Running around with a gun in a shooting situation looking for an unknown shooter is not going to make things better, it will only add more problems when the Police do finally get there to include mistaking you for the shooter if not just adding a new target for the shooter who has no target ID problems. Everyone is a target.
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?
« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2007, 09:53:47 AM »
To answer the one question about shootings..  fully one quarter of all school shootings were stopped by a civilian with a firearm before the police arrived.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/NROMultipleVicShootings305.html

It would be higher of course if they were not "gun free zones"  the law school one for instance ended in the parking lot and the civilian with the gun was never given credit.   The three guys who jumped the gunman AFTER he was subdued by the civilian with the gun were given credit.

There is no magic to police training.. anything an off duty cop can do a civilian with some guts and some shooting experiance can do.   I would venture to say that I am a better shot than 90% of the cops out there.   That is no big deal.. I know lots of guys who are.

as for bingalongs idea of converting a commercial version of an AKS to full auto... not gonna happen.. even a gunsmith would probly give up as a waste of time.  Just as there is a huge difference between an M1 carbine and an M2 carbine.

lazs