Author Topic: Shooting at New Life Church in Colorado Springs  (Read 2596 times)

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2007, 06:06:54 PM »
Female member who shot gunman credits God
Jeanne Assam, the female congregant who shot a gunman who entered New Life church Sunday, said she felt weak as she approached him because she had been fasting. "I prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me, for the Holy Spirit to be with me," she said. "My hands weren't even shaking. I knew what I had to do."


So God decided to let 4 people die and then used this woman to shoot the killer.

I thinks his timing is off.

Argh those comments make me cringe.
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Offline SIG220

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« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2007, 06:32:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Female member who shot gunman credits God
Jeanne Assam, the female congregant who shot a gunman who entered New Life church Sunday, said she felt weak as she approached him because she had been fasting. "I prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me, for the Holy Spirit to be with me," she said. "My hands weren't even shaking. I knew what I had to do."

So God decided to let 4 people die and then used this woman to shoot the killer.

I thinks his timing is off.

Argh those comments make me cringe.


People often call upon God to help them, in a time of absolute crisis.  This often even happens to people that are not all that religious.   They suddenly find religion when they find themselves in a really bad situation.

This also happens all the time in war too.

You should not be so critical of the religious beliefs of others.  If anything, you should be very respectful of her faith.

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Offline moot

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« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2007, 06:56:05 PM »
Here we go again, someone trying to argue religion..  Have fun down the rabbit hole Sig.  There's nothing rational about faith.
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Offline SIG220

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« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2007, 07:24:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
Here we go again, someone trying to argue religion..  Have fun down the rabbit hole Sig.  There's nothing rational about faith.


But that does not mean that you should not be respectful of the religious faith of others.  

There is no religious argument of any kind here.  It is only a matter of respect.

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Offline moot

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« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2007, 07:42:11 PM »
So?... There's no such thing as respect.  Only recognition of common interests.  Religion and moreso faith blow whichever way someone would fancy it to.  It aspires to some noble values but is unchecked by reason of any kind.. It pays no respect to reason.
And nothing ranks above reason.

If there's anything that I see in people who will put themselves in harm's way to save others, it's duty.
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Offline pengu146

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« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2007, 07:49:43 PM »
Did they check to see if the gunman had a mental problem?

Offline SIG220

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« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2007, 08:10:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
So?... There's no such thing as respect.  Only recognition of common interests.  Religion and moreso faith blow whichever way someone would fancy it to.  It aspires to some noble values but is unchecked by reason of any kind.. It pays no respect to reason.
And nothing ranks above reason.

If there's anything that I see in people who will put themselves in harm's way to save others, it's duty.


Well, it turns out now that she worked as a police officer in Minneapolis, before moving to Colorado.  So she indeed had law enforcement training.

But even with all of that professional training and experience, she says that it was God who guided her actions, and who also protected her from the gunman.

She had been fasting for 3 days to honor God, before the shooting.   So she said that she actually felt quite weak from the fasting, as she came forward to confront the gunman.

So if she was feeling so physically weak, where did all of her strength come from, if not from God??

If she says that it was God that gave her strength, I think we should all be willing to accept that, and not criticize her in any way.

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Offline SIG220

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« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2007, 08:11:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by pengu146
Did they check to see if the gunman had a mental problem?


No, but it appears that he decided to reject Jesus Christ, and now hated all Christians.

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Offline SD67

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« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2007, 08:21:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by pengu146
Did they check to see if the gunman had a mental problem?

Would you stop to check to see if the guy who was pointing a rifle at you was mentally incapacitated before shooting him?
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2007, 09:05:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SIG220
People often call upon God to help them, in a time of absolute crisis.  This often even happens to people that are not all that religious.   They suddenly find religion when they find themselves in a really bad situation.

This also happens all the time in war too.

You should not be so critical of the religious beliefs of others.  If anything, you should be very respectful of her faith.

SIG 220


Not questioning her faith.  Questioning the notion of a God that is selectively active.  Her comments suggest that maybe the 4 who died didn't have the Holy Spirit with them?  Why did God wait until after someone died?

I've got a problem with it if I accept the notion of a God who steps in when he feels like it to cause people to do things, and he just sits back and let others die.

I don't believe you can have it both ways.  I can accept that there is a God who gave us the ability to choose and have free will and then stepped out of the equation to let us use that gift.  But to suggest he randomly chooses to intervene is a horrible thing to ponder for me.

How would you explain that to the parents of those two dead kids that the killer shot on the way into the church?  God was too busy preparing the security guard to save the two girls?

And I ask in all seriousness as I'm 2 years and 4 months out from having lost 2 of mine
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2007, 10:48:42 PM »
Guppy,

In all seriousness why don't you ask someone who is a theologian those questions. I doubt you really would do so or want to hear the answers, you are just spreading the pain you seem to be feeling from your loss. Assuming of course your comment in your post previous to this one is true. I am not saying you are not being truthful but there are many folks on the bbs here who troll in a manner just as tasteless as that.

Pick the religious faith you feel most comfortable with and ask a clergymen those questions. You may not hear anything you will want to listen to or believe but it's a far better place to ask questions like that.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2007, 10:56:28 PM »
Whether her bullets were guided by jesus or her years of training, I'm glad they found their target.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2007, 10:59:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Whether her bullets were guided by jesus or her years of training, I'm glad they found their target.


Amen to that. Good job.

It turns out she was a CCW holder, that should make Laz happy even if it was a "woman" who had Police firearm training. :p

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« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 11:08:56 PM by Maverick »
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2007, 11:24:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Guppy,

In all seriousness why don't you ask someone who is a theologian those questions. I doubt you really would do so or want to hear the answers, you are just spreading the pain you seem to be feeling from your loss. Assuming of course your comment in your post previous to this one is true. I am not saying you are not being truthful but there are many folks on the bbs here who troll in a manner just as tasteless as that.

Pick the religious faith you feel most comfortable with and ask a clergymen those questions. You may not hear anything you will want to listen to or believe but it's a far better place to ask questions like that.


Pretty sure Dan isn't phrasing the questions out of need for clarification, lack of spiritual faith or unresolved loss. More like offering some perspective regarding flaws in conflicting logic, as he sees it.

Kudos to the security guard for ending the killing spree. It could have been worse. Whether she was guided by the hand of God or how or .... why .... the event transpired the way it did is not for me to say nor judge, I agree. But Dan's questioning didn't come off as anything other than a genuine challenge to the logic of the statement ... not an attack on the sensibilities of the faithful, to me.

Now I would say this, however .... a three day fast for spiritual reason that made the guard shakey and weak .... until drawing sidearm and dispatching the gunman .... didn't sound like a particularly wise thing to do during her duty hours. Perhaps a day fast on her off hours or something. I've seen the proverbial "baby Christian" go to such extremes then share insight with brethren that drew criticism from fellow parishoners. But .... like I said in the previous paragraph .... not for me to say or judge - I can just see room for a critical eye without it involving desire to insult.

Some of us mortals down here seem convinced they have the answer to the why of it all and present themselves as especially qualified to illuminate the rest of us with God's most intimate thoughts, motivations and methods. And some of us mortals aren't as easily convinced, even to self. Faith doesn't require knowing all the answers. Society progressed past killing holy men (even lay persons) for not knowing all the answers long ago.

The Bible is a wonderful illustration of love and life ... if not taken fanatically literal. Same goes for the Koran, eh? And making up extra stuff to fill in the blanks so those of us struggling to live with our misery can carry on is well and good but not everyone lacks the coping skills to make it. Granted, what's a church service without a sermon? (Well, ask a Quaker.)

Bottom line: Explaining how God's blessings work .... isn't our job. We kinda lack the qualifications for that position (even when we're the tool utilized for a different job). Sometimes the best response to someone's loss isn't having an answer .... it's a shoulder, an ear, a hug, a meal, a ride, an offer to share a burden .... and, of course:

Sincere prayers for all suffering loss in this tragedy.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 12:11:03 AM by Arlo »

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2007, 12:57:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Guppy,

In all seriousness why don't you ask someone who is a theologian those questions. I doubt you really would do so or want to hear the answers, you are just spreading the pain you seem to be feeling from your loss. Assuming of course your comment in your post previous to this one is true. I am not saying you are not being truthful but there are many folks on the bbs here who troll in a manner just as tasteless as that.

Pick the religious faith you feel most comfortable with and ask a clergymen those questions. You may not hear anything you will want to listen to or believe but it's a far better place to ask questions like that.


Mom's husband is  a minister, and my uncle is a minister.  Trust me we've had these conversations.  They don't have an answer.  If anything it's made them question things as well.  People wasnt simple answers and folks can live with them unless something comes along that throws that all out the window.

No troll.  I'd not be so cruel.

edited to add

It occured to me after I replied that I had something else to say.  Should I have not complicated the question by throwing my own experience into it?
Are you uncomfortable with what you describe as me 'spreading my pain"?  Should I pretend it didn't happen?  

I'm not looking for sympathy when I mention my kids, but it does seem to make folks react. So be it.  I hope it complicates things in a discussion like this.  One of the hard parts of 'living' with it, is that folks expect it NOT to be part of what goes on and that if mentioned I should look for 'help' elsewhere.

The more I thought about your reply the angrier I got.  The condescending tone of your answer as if you are talking down to someone without a clue says a lot.

Cleary it must have been God who wanted me to write my first post just to get you to react.

Glad it's all so black and white for you.

BTW, if I raise the question, yeah I want answers.  I'm guessing you don't have one that works.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 01:57:34 AM by Guppy35 »
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