Shooting at New Life Church in Colorado Springs

[Nilsen]

Jesus-guided bullets. I like it, but it opens up for other guided systems that may be less cute.

[wrag]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Not questioning her faith.  Questioning the notion of a God that is selectively active.  Her comments suggest that maybe the 4 who died didn't have the Holy Spirit with them?  Why did God wait until after someone died?

I've got a problem with it if I accept the notion of a God who steps in when he feels like it to cause people to do things, and he just sits back and let others die.

I don't believe you can have it both ways.  I can accept that there is a God who gave us the ability to choose and have free will and then stepped out of the equation to let us use that gift.  But to suggest he randomly chooses to intervene is a horrible thing to ponder for me.

How would you explain that to the parents of those two dead kids that the killer shot on the way into the church?  God was too busy preparing the security guard to save the two girls?

And I ask in all seriousness as I'm 2 years and 4 months out from having lost 2 of mine

You have posed a very difficult question to answer.

A possibility.....

There are some people that have an ability to totally surrender themselves to something under certain conditions.

To BLINDLY and TOTALLY trust in something other then themselves.  It is a KNOWING?

When I say totally surrender I'm not sure how to explain that statement.  It is a surrendering to something without RESERVATIONS of any sort.

Not many can find such a thing within themselves.

Which IMHO is perfectly natural.  Letting someone or something have complete control over your body, and your actions, the very thought is frightening.

You LET something IN with NO RESISTANCE, NO THOUGHT, NO FEAR, and NO REGRET and you give it COMPLETE control with NO interference from you.

You ACCEPT. ( OK somehow that seems like the correct way to put it but sounds not quite right? )

It's TRUSTING something is actually there where many, even though they express they believe, have a question, a tiny little doubt.  A doubt that prevents them from surrendering themselves? (not sure I've got the phrasing correct here)

IMHO the pilot of the Orion P3 that collided with the Chinese jet over the straights near Taiwan DID just that.

IIRC He said afterward, on the news, that he WAS NOT flying that plane.  He was just along for the ride.  IIRC He stated that he ASKED for Gods help and then LET God help.

I'm pretty sure, if the lady that did the shooting were to give it serious thought she might say the same thing.

As to why some die and some don't?

I have NO answer.  Wish I did.  Wish I could tell you something that would help.  I could only speculate.  I don't think speculation is what you want to hear.

Sadly part of the freewill thing, if I understand it correctly, is that some choose to do evil with their freewill and innocent people can and often are harmed by these actions.

Why does God step in when God choses to step in?  Perhaps the above can present a POSSIBLE concept of why, but PLEASE understand I'm not saying that is why.

I don't know why and I will not pretend that I do.  I hope this possibility that I present as a maybe answer doesn't say to anyone that I do KNOW.

[wrag]

Originally posted by texasmom
That's the first time I've ever, ever heard of an armed guard at a church.

Lookin at history in America...

at one time those attending church BROUGHT their firearms, and other weapons WITH them.

AND were prepared to use them at a moments notice. (they were loaded)

Later it somehow became a no-no to bring weapons to church.......

in either case it seems guards weren't considered necessary?

[SD67]

Maybe "God" required the BG to actually commit to the act before he directed his "servant". What if the BG shouldered his weapon, took aim and then found it was not in his heart to commit such an act?
I'm not in any way demeaning the tragedy, but I'm just trying to put forth a point of view.
Consider this analogy.
You are watching a new addition to a fish tank that is acting strangely, you decide to wait a little, to see just what is going to happen. You don't want to upset the balance of the tank by taking it out unless absolutely necessary. Despite your best efforts, when the new creature starts attacking and killing it's neighbours you lose a few before you can get the offender out of the tank.

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Nilsen
Jesus-guided bullets. I like it, but it opens up for other guided systems that may be less cute.

Perhaps Satan was in control of the shooter.   Although now there are people saying that he was mentally ill also, and heard voices.

If God exists, then Satan and Hell surely must exist also.  So maybe he was the one speaking into this fellow's head and guiding his actions?  We have just learned that the shooter was a fan of rocker Marilyn Manson, who we know in real life is a member of the First Church of Satan.  

For him to have sung a Manson song at a Christmas Musical event back in December 14, 2002, illustrates just how bizarre his behavior had become, and why he was kicked out of the missionary center back at that time.   Can you imagine how the folks in the audience must have reacted to the Manson song?  People actually reported that his performance made them feel scared.  He was in a group at the center training back then to go to Bosnia to convert Muslims to Christianity, before being thrown out of the organization.  

Here is a quote from Manson's autobiography: "The Long Hard Road Out of Hell,":

" It makes a lot more sense to follow the Satanic Bible, written with 20th century humanity in mind, than a book that was written as a companion to a culture long since defunct. Who's to say that a hundred years from now, some idiot isn't going to find a Marilyn Manson T-shirt, nail it to a wall and decide to pray to it. "

So perhaps we need to remember the famous words of the SNL Church Lady.  They could possibly apply.

Still, no matter what, we need to ask God to forgive the shooter too, and comfort his family also, who are naturally in pain as well.  Like the Virginia Tech shooter, this fellow's family all seem to be good and decent people too.

SIG 220

[-tronski-]

So its Marilyn Manson made me do it now?

Ha...I've listen to Marilyn Manson plenty of times...and yet still haven't manage to kill a single person...for all we know a K-Mart catalogue sent him over the edge - crazy doesn't exactly need too much to flip out...sounds like a personal grudge holds more water than humming along to the Beautiful People...

 Tronsky

[bj229r]

Originally posted by texasmom
That's the first time I've ever, ever heard of an armed guard at a church.

It's sad, but you rarely see a church without a burglar alarm, or even a funeral home, for that matter (btw, saw the security guard on Fox this am...she's a HOTTIE!)

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by wrag
IMHO the pilot of the Orion P3 that collided with the Chinese jet over the straights near Taiwan DID just that.

IIRC He said afterward, on the news, that he WAS NOT flying that plane.  He was just along for the ride.  IIRC He stated that he ASKED for Gods help and then LET God help.

You know 4 pilots on 9/11 said exactly the same thing.

[Eagler]

Strange how some are trying to turn this into another bash on Christianity.

Peace to the family of those killed by the cheekbones.

Thanks to the security guard for her life saving fast action:

[Shuckins]

Well, I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I believe in personal responsibility.  I don't expect God to handle all the problems of the world....that's what WE are here for.

I suppose that is why I have little in common with those who expect the government to solve all of their personal, social, political, and security problems.  

The female security guard was armed with three things:  a strong faith, a backbone, and the weapon suitable to the task.  It is notable that, according to an eyewitness (who was a Vietnam vet) two other guards refused to take any action, and even refused to loan their gun to the vet, who was someone that they knew, so that HE could take out the gunman.

Guppy, I believe we've discussed the loss of your loved ones before in another thread.  Being a parent, I can understand the pain of your loss.  The highway in front of my house is one of the most dangerous roads in the state.  I dread seeing them driving on it everytime they leave the house.  It is made dangerous by the idiots that drive on it.  

Yet, that is not God's fault.  We have free will, and because we are fallible, oftentimes, we misuse that right.  In doing so, we place ourselves, and others, in jeopardy.  This is a consequence of a refusal to accept the reality of our own mortality.  As I said before, we should not expect God to master all the tides of the world.  Mortality is necessary to keep the world from becoming overcrowded.  God confines most of his activities to the realm of the spirit, which, unlike the flesh is eternal.

I believe that my spirit will someday be reunited with my loved ones who have preceded me in death.  My hope for you, is that you can be comforted in your loss, and come to believe in a reunion someday with your family.

Regards, Shuckins

[Shuckins]

By the way, that unarmed vet, after failing to convince the other security guard to give up his gun, jumped into the open and yelled at the gunman to distract him, so that other potential victims to escape.  Talk about guts!  

Also according to him, the female security guard stepped into the open to challenge him.  They exchanged fire in a wild west style shootout.  After he went down she pleaded with him to drop his weapon and give up.  When he continued to try to bring his weapon to bear, she shot him again, ending the crisis.

Courage and compassion.  Two of our best attributes...all in a single lady.  My hat's off to you lady.

[storch]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Not questioning her faith.  Questioning the notion of a God that is selectively active.  Her comments suggest that maybe the 4 who died didn't have the Holy Spirit with them?  Why did God wait until after someone died?

I've got a problem with it if I accept the notion of a God who steps in when he feels like it to cause people to do things, and he just sits back and let others die.

I don't believe you can have it both ways.  I can accept that there is a God who gave us the ability to choose and have free will and then stepped out of the equation to let us use that gift.  But to suggest he randomly chooses to intervene is a horrible thing to ponder for me.

How would you explain that to the parents of those two dead kids that the killer shot on the way into the church?  God was too busy preparing the security guard to save the two girls?

And I ask in all seriousness as I'm 2 years and 4 months out from having lost 2 of mine

google spinoza

[lazs2]

Arlo...in this case I think you are right.. it is not ours to explain how god works.

You guys who are mad at your god because he doesn't act the way you want are silly... It is like being mad because you got fired and then never realizing that if you hadn't... you wouldn't have moved on and grown.

lazs

[lazs2]

Mav... you are kidding right?  I am thrilled that a woman CCW holder with police training brought down this whackjob ahole before he could kill more sheep.

If you read what I say.... I am all in favor of people getting the best firearms training they can..   I am also a huge huge fan of CCW.. and...  I have said in every case that firearms are to equalize.. that maybe the young and strong may not need em (or think they don't) but what about women and the infirm?

I have also said that the shootings will only be stopped by CCW holders who take out the bad guys and ruin their fun and make the imitators all go "dude.. that's sucks.. game over."

Oh.. and my position that a revolver in the hand of a smart shooter is not helpless against an assault weapon seems to be vindicated too.

I think that this whole shooting incident bolsters my position in the best possible way.

I only wish more people at the mall were CCW holders.   There probly is no hope  for our poor children at the schools tho.. the liberals will let the slaughter continue with their "gun free zone" idiocy.

lazs

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Mom's husband is  a minister, and my uncle is a minister.  Trust me we've had these conversations.  They don't have an answer.  If anything it's made them question things as well.  People wasnt simple answers and folks can live with them unless something comes along that throws that all out the window.

No troll.  I'd not be so cruel.

edited to add

It occurred to me after I replied that I had something else to say.  Should I have not complicated the question by throwing my own experience into it?
Are you uncomfortable with what you describe as me 'spreading my pain"?  Should I pretend it didn't happen?  

I'm not looking for sympathy when I mention my kids, but it does seem to make folks react. So be it.  I hope it complicates things in a discussion like this.  One of the hard parts of 'living' with it, is that folks expect it NOT to be part of what goes on and that if mentioned I should look for 'help' elsewhere.

The more I thought about your reply the angrier I got.  The condescending tone of your answer as if you are talking down to someone without a clue says a lot.

Cleary it must have been God who wanted me to write my first post just to get you to react.

Glad it's all so black and white for you.

BTW, if I raise the question, yeah I want answers.  I'm guessing you don't have one that works.

Nope, I wasn't talking down to you a bit. I figured your best bet was to get answers from folks who are far more qualified in the field than people on a game bbs. I had no intention of insulting you at all but a text only means of communication without all of the other nonverbal cues makes getting the idea across difficult.

Frankly your asking THIS group here rather than someone with the theological background is not where I would expect to find any real answers to your questions. In retrospect perhaps no one can answer them. My personal guess, and that's all it is, a guess is that the answers you want can only be found through faith.

You can take my post at face value, and as intended, that you seek answers from someone really qualified to deal with that type of issue or you can infer I was being sarcastic. I can't make it much plainer I'm afraid. I won't try to push my idea of faith onto you or assume I can answer any of your questions. I don't claim to speak for God nor do I assume he needs me to speak for Him.