Author Topic: Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs  (Read 2473 times)

Offline JB73

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2007, 04:28:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
No.. The D9 doesn't turn sustained with the 51D.
for emphasis.




GS, you know how much time I have in the dora, probably more than anyone in game, unless MANDOBLE is flying under shades lol.

Equal pilots, the dora is no match for a pony, the pony has too many easy "outs" where if the dora follows, or attempts to stay in position it will lose.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline Viking

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2007, 04:31:30 PM »
Oh? I will defer to your greater experience then since I hardy fly 190's these days.

But ... I find it difficult to believe that you cannot maintain a E advantage against the Pony. The Dora has acceleration, climb and speed over the Pony.

Offline Hajo

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2007, 04:38:48 PM »
D9 also has more drag then a P51.

P51 also faster at altitude.
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Offline Viking

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2007, 04:45:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hajo
D9 also has more drag then a P51.


Which means you can slow down quicker when you need to.



Quote
Originally posted by Hajo
P51 also faster at altitude.


Yes, above 21k the Pony is faster. Below 20k the Dora is faster (10 mph at SL). How often do you fight above 20k in the MA ... or duel above 20k?

Offline Krusty

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2007, 04:55:55 PM »
Any flight testing done with an allison engine wouldn't reflect what the real WW2 plane could do.

For starters, it doesn't have the radio, the MW, the weapons, the 500+ rounds of ammunition, the armored glass and cockpit, the sillfully trained pilot that knows how to turn the plane without spinning it out and crashing a horrible death (okay, an exaggeration, but you get my point).

It might very well fly like a spitfire in its current state, but that doesn't mean the real thing did.

Offline JB73

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2007, 04:59:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Oh? I will defer to your greater experience then since I hardy fly 190's these days.

But ... I find it difficult to believe that you cannot maintain a E advantage against the Pony. The Dora has acceleration, climb and speed over the Pony.
BTW I was quoting the "for emphasis" while you were typing yours, so I hope you don't think I was talking about your posts...

anyway, there are many ways to fight in the dora, and flying full flaps in it is a BAD place to be in even 1-1. it is sooooo unstable it isn't funny. the stall edge is a razorblade, and once you flop a bit you just lost the fight.

remember we are talking about equal pilots here, the pony guy won't bother fighting vert and slashing, he will fight to the pony strengths.


but those are just my thoughts on the matter.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline Viking

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2007, 04:59:54 PM »
I doubt it will fly anything like a Spit ... or a real Dora for that matter. Since they're probably not going to have a WEP setting available that Allison will have little more than half the power of the Jumo.

Offline Viking

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2007, 05:04:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB73
remember we are talking about equal pilots here, the pony guy won't bother fighting vert and slashing, he will fight to the pony strengths.


I agree, but what choice does he have? The faster and better climbing plane controls the fight. All he can do is hope the Dora pilot makes a mistake and capitalize on it. (Granted the Dora is very unforgiving to mistakes.)

Offline moot

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2007, 05:18:49 PM »
Out-climbing or otherwise regaining E faster than the pony is the D9's only chance.  Scissors would just delay the outcome.
The pony has less drag, can reach out to ~500y with its guns easily, can put its flaps out starting at 400mph, and all the way down to a 125mph stall fight will hold advantage over the D9.
It couldn't keep up with the D9's scissors, but doesn't have to, with low speed stability advantage and faster airbraking, the only possible vulnerability would be for the D9 to out-accelerate from such a slow fight, but with any two equal pilots that aren't noobs, the D9 would get away with lots of bullet holes at best.
Its advantage from then on would only be significant if at this stage the fight was happening down on the deck, and that would mean the D9 wouldn't have had much of a chance escaping from a level acceleration.

The best chance against a pony would be to beat it at around 16kft or so, in the valley of advantage it holds in speed and acceleration somewhere between very high and medium speeds.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 05:25:42 PM by moot »
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Offline Viking

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2007, 05:31:16 PM »
Moot, the Dora handily out-accelerates the Pony at all altitudes below 20k. On the deck the Pony takes 52 seconds to accelerate from 150 to 350 mph. The Dora only takes 39 seconds.

If for some reason the Pony should get on the Dora's tail (only possible if the Dora makes a BIG mistake) the Dora could always spiral-climb out of trouble.

Offline Krusty

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2007, 05:38:23 PM »
However, if the pony gets any speed up, it keeps it forever, whereas the dora bleeds its very quickly. Even with 10 minutes of WEP, the dora most often has trouble keeping up with the pony. The pony noses down, levels, and the dora falls behind even though it matched the move.

Pulling high-drag moves (like a spiral) are more likely going to end with the dora bled dry and the pony with E to spare.

But then, I'm no expert...

Offline moot

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Viking
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2007, 05:40:08 PM »
No... The dora doesn't turn well enough to deny the solution with a tighter spiral climb, and a wider one just bets on the pony not cutting angle and landing a killshot, or crippling the D9s chances at least.
In the time the Dora takes to accelerate, the Pony can land plenty of hits to turn the odds on its side.
It would take forever to build a real advantage over the Pony that way, and unless you do, the D9 just can't draw tight enough bends to turn back into the Pony.  It just doesn't happen... Unless you go for the marathon outclimbing method.

It just doesn't work Viking.  It's even worse (like orders of magnitude worse) when you've got not a 1:1 but numbers like in a scenario.  
The only plane I've felt safe to definitely beat a pony in was the AH1 Ta152, and the A5 now.  The 152 could really stall fight much better (with a 30mm instead of 2 50's = 1 hit kill), as well as edge out the pony in E retention.  That was an advantage.
The A5's agility also has a clear advantage in its quick response time over the 51D, compared to the splitting hair difference in practical effectiveness between the D9 and the 51D.
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Offline Viking

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2007, 06:20:43 PM »
Actually the plane I feel most comfortable in against a Pony is the 109K. It's a bonafide Pony-killer. The Pony can escape by diving, but that's all.

Offline moot

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2007, 07:19:39 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking in relation to the 190D.
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Offline ghi

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Flugwerke 109D9 engine runs
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2007, 07:21:04 PM »
Dora vs Temp ,on other forums translated by Alex Voicu

 """i tried to translate this from an article in a romanian magazine. It's a fragment from the book "Une sacree guerre" by P. Clostermann:

On 25 of April 1945, just before the end of the war, i was on combat patrol with another 5 Tempests along the Osnabruck-Breme highway, over the great Dummersee lake. I was flying the best RAF fighter and the war was almost over; in short, i was in a sort of state that English call overconfidence. Nevertheless, in the last few weeks 1/JG26 shot down 14 of our Tempests. An entire allied squadron!
Suddenly, a Long Nose FW190 comes out of a cloud; i see him with the corner of my eye coming like an arrow, and before i can even move, the Tempest on my right explodes...then another explosion on my right, a wing floats like a leaf and the Focke Wulf vanishes into another cloud, only to show up somewhere in front of me, just above the lake surface. I called one of my pilots on the radio and asked him to take over: "Cover me, i'm going, i'm going after him, keep your altitude". Then i said something to remember: "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!"

I would like to add here that RAF issued every month a confidential magazine, with advice and information considered useful for pilots, which included the most stupid mistakes we did, of course with the intention of avoiding them in the future. In one of these issues, under the "Most famous last words" headline (i could have removed the sentence of course, i had the power, it was the last wartime issue, but i didn't) my words appeared: "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!"

So i'm really pushing my Tempest, and while diving the speed builds up like crazy: 750, 800 Km/h...I'm now flying just above the water and i'm closing in at about 400 m behind the german. I say to myself it looks pretty good, i have the sun behind me, the FW is in the shade... I reach out to adjust my gunsight and unlock my four 20 mm cannon, then i look up... the german is not there any more! Good God, where is he?! I can't believe this, this old fox let me come close behind him, rocking his wings gently to send me to sleep and, right at the moment when i leaned over the gunsight, he sprung out vertically like a rocket! I did't really have a choice, i went up after him, pulling hard on the stick, crushed against the seat and with my head whirling, trying not to let him out of my sight. I could see the tail of that plane climbing and climbing, but suddenly i felt my Tempest shaking and buffeting. I am completely bewildered... i'll probably spin, and the spin, which is forbidden for the Tempest under 3000 m, will surely make me crash into the ground... So i panicked, breaking the seal and pushing the throttle to emergency power. Then i did a completely stupid maneuver, trying to regain control of my plane but succeeding to build up some speed though. But againg the FW disappeared! Where is he?

Bang!
The first projectile bounces off the cowling. Bang! Another one. I feel the shock. The engine suddenly stops, and so does my heart... the propeller hangs like a cross in front of me and black smoke comes out of the exhaust pipes. You can't imagine what it feels like. The whole universe crumbles in a split second! You feel like everything inside you drains off, you no longer have a heart, stomach, brain, saliva... Just a terrible fear that replaces everything else.

It was, as usual with fighter planes, a matter of centimeters: the first projectile bounced off the armor plate of the fuel tank, filled with 1000 liters of fuel... I tried to glide, well, as good as at Tempest could glide! I realised with horror that i was too low to bail out; what was i supposed to do? I completely panicked. I opened the canopy, but it jamed, i pulled the jettison handle but it wasn't working, when, completely astounded, i see flying close, very close to me, maybe less than 20 m away, the fuselage of the D9, painted brown with green spots and wearing the red and yellow bands of JG301. A fabulous machine... He didn't want to get ahead of me and closed his throttle, probably worrying i'll try to play some tricks on him before going down. I even have the time to admire him in detail! And he has more than enough time to finish me off. He doesn't... there's no point in doing it. Was he trying to teach me a lesson? He goes around me in a half-roll, i saw -i can still see- the face of the pilot looking at me, but suddenly the ground is right in front of me!

I crash-landed. 100 meters of sliding in a thick mud - a coal quarry. That saved me, absorbing the shock in a cloud of black mud. I rushed out of the smoking plane, ignoring 2 things. The parachute harness somehow got tangled into the seat, and that stoped me for a moment. I set it free, forgetting that the mask was coupled to the oxygen bottles with a flexible tube and a fitting. The tube extended, only to come off a moment later and the fitting hit me hard in the face. Seeing black before my eyes from the hit, i jumped on the mud covered wing, slid and fell on my butt in the mud. Then i heard the specific sound of a german engine. As beautiful as their planes looked, their engines always sounded like a wreck. I can still see the black propeller hub coming towards me, with the white rotating spiral... Is he going to shoot? No, he rocks his wings gently and pulls up. I continued to lie there, dumbfounded and scared, until two americans, too stupid to recognize an allied plane, stuck their machinegun barrels under my nose...

An US Stinson brought me back to my base. I was saved! All this time, the other squadmates thought the german was the one shot down and they were congratulating me on the radio. I explained them later! That evening, at the officer's mess, all my pilots ironically applauded when i walked into the room. A bilboard, which seemed much too big, was hanging from the ceiling: "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!"
The check that night cost me the pay for a whole month."""""""""""""
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 07:48:21 PM by ghi »