190 Series Vs. P38 Series

[Tac]

...and I agree with both you as well. My whole point is take someone who has poor ACM and put him in a 38. True, he may not stall and kill himself in the 38 but he will still be a guaranteed casualty in the first dogfight he gets into. Put in him a 190D9 (note: D9 not saying anything about the other 190's) and as long as he knows where the WEP is that pilot has a significantly higher chance in that dogfight.

Pilot makes all the difference when that pilot is GOOD. When the pilot is poor its the plane that makes the difference. The Dora and the 38 are on opposite ends of that spectrum.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Tac
...and I agree with both you as well. My whole point is take someone who has poor ACM and put him in a 38. True, he may not stall and kill himself in the 38 but he will still be a guaranteed casualty in the first dogfight he gets into. Put in him a 190D9 (note: D9 not saying anything about the other 190's) and as long as he knows where the WEP is that pilot has a significantly higher chance in that dogfight.

Pilot makes all the difference when that pilot is GOOD. When the pilot is poor its the plane that makes the difference. The Dora and the 38 are on opposite ends of that spectrum.

I still have to take issue with this.

I fly all the 190's, not that much but I do fly them all.  The A5 turns best, the A8 has the best gun package, the D9 is fastest and the F8 carries more ord but the general handling charachteristics aren't that different and the differences are small in a fight.

I've also flown the P-38s although not that much and I'm no expert by any means.  I've flown the G the most, then the J several times and the L very little.

To get into an actual fight, where your intent is not to run away, is much more difficult in any of the 190's than it is in any of the 38's.  Mastering either is difficult but if you have a basic grasp of the use of flaps the 38's are far superior to the 190's in ease of use and therfore, in survivability.

I think you keep assuming the 190 will run while the 38 will not and I don't blame you as that's how they are often flown in the MA's but please keep the comparison on equal terms.  Running isn't a dogfight.

[Guppy35]

Since when can anyone run in a 38G?

That's part of the fun.  Can't outrun anything as near as I can tell.  I have to fight

I think it's fair to say a 190 pilot is going to rely more on alt and E while a 38 driver is more likely to engage in a turn fight.

[killnu]

I think it's fair to say a 190 pilot is going to rely more on alt and E while a 38 driver is more likely to engage in a turn fight.

For some 38 drivers that is true...Ive seen my fair share of "190" type 38 flying though.  Keeping speed up, retain alt advantage and pick away.  Then you run into somebody like you and just dont know what to do.  

[trigger2]

Originally posted by Guppy35
So basically after all this we can agree that a 190D9 with alt and E can control when he engages a 38 and that a 190D9 pilot co alt and co-E should put the nose down and run because he can out dive a 38?

What I see is more of a reverse roping idea...
While the p38 has the advantage in an upwards vertical, the 190 has the advantage in the dive where the p38 locks up at ~400 mph whilst the 190 can go over 500, so instead of the p38 getting the 190 to climb with it, stall out, and then pounce, the 190 would dive, wait for the p38 to lock up or pull out, immelman or loop, and let the 20mm's or 30mm's do the rest.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by trigger2
What I see is more of a reverse roping idea...
While the p38 has the advantage in an upwards vertical, the 190 has the advantage in the dive where the p38 locks up at ~400 mph whilst the 190 can go over 500, so instead of the p38 getting the 190 to climb with it, stall out, and then pounce, the 190 would dive, wait for the p38 to lock up or pull out, immelman or loop, and let the 20mm's or 30mm's do the rest.

Try that with Ack Ack.  Report back with what happens.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by trigger2
What I see is more of a reverse roping idea...
While the p38 has the advantage in an upwards vertical, the 190 has the advantage in the dive where the p38 locks up at ~400 mph whilst the 190 can go over 500, so instead of the p38 getting the 190 to climb with it, stall out, and then pounce, the 190 would dive, wait for the p38 to lock up or pull out, immelman or loop, and let the 20mm's or 30mm's do the rest.

Only an inexperienced P-38 flyer would get caught like that.  Try that against experienced P-38 drivers and all they will do is kick some rudder out to increase drag and adjust throttle accordingly to control the dive speed.  

If I see a Dora or any other plane try the trick you describe, one of two things will happen.  1) the Dora will die when it tries to go vertical after the dive.  2) the Dora will run.

All I have to do is just control the angle of my dive while controlling my speed.  I'm not going to follow you completely in your dive.  I am going to lessen my dive angle to maintain my energy state more than anything else.   This will allow me to have enough energy to match your climb when you pull out of the dive and easily catch you for the kill.   If you try and Immel at the top, all I have to do is then do a vertical 8 or continue my vertical climb for either the rope or to gain the altitude advantage.  At this point you will have two options, try and fight and at low speed, you won't last very long or try and get away.

Of course, you can always choose option #2.  YMMV.

ack-ack

[Benny Moore]

... Or with me.  I generally don't let my P-38 go into compression.  And if I do, it's quite controllable.  I don't even use the dive flaps; all I need to do is use a little bit of postive elevator trim, then return it to neutral when I'm at a safer speed.  I've never had an FW-190 foil me by diving, unless he's strictly running from the fight.  But remember that an FW-190 diving is only going to gain from the dive if he's leaving the fight for good.  If he comes back, he's going to be worse off than he was before he dove.

[Tac]

"I think you keep assuming the 190 will run while the 38 will not and I don't blame you as that's how they are often flown in the MA's but please keep the comparison on equal terms. Running isn't a dogfight."

Not at all, I do not assume the 190's will run (although thats almost always the case).

What im trying to say is that a 38 HAS (important keyword: HAS) to enter a fight to shoot down the other guy. Running is rarely a viable option in the 38 as almost all planes except the very early war set will catch up with it after a dive.  

Those with little skill in ACM cant survive the 38 when vs most of the planeset as the 38 is not dramatically better at any one thing than the other planes..whereas the 190d9 is dramatically better in acceleration and dive than most of the planeset thanks to its WEP.

So again, a good pilot makes the difference in any plane. But the plane makes all the difference in the hands of not so good pilots.

[alskahawk]

There is an interesting story of Joe Foss and another ace arguing about the virtues of the P38 versus the P51. To settle the argument they dueled(without guns). The 38 lost. The mustang simply out climbed the 38 and proceeded to BnZ him.

 As we all know. A good pilot in a lesser plane will probably beat a novice in a better plane most of the time.
 So a P38 co-alt with a FW 190 A8. Experienced pilots. Toss up. P38 will turn better, the Fw dives faster. Fw rolls quicker. At 5k and above 20k* the advantage is probably with the 38. *if Fw stays and doesn't dive out.

 That's just a guess though. Don't much like either plane. In a Spit (my campaign ride) I prefer catching a 38 low or co-alt. I can turn with either. I can out climb either. The head on factor is about equal from my point of view. A P38 can't dive away. The Fw will dive out and be gone.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by alskahawk
There is an interesting story of Joe Foss and another ace arguing about the virtues of the P38 versus the P51. To settle the argument they dueled(without guns). The 38 lost. The mustang simply out climbed the 38 and proceeded to BnZ him.

 As we all know. A good pilot in a lesser plane will probably beat a novice in a better plane most of the time.
 So a P38 co-alt with a FW 190 A8. Experienced pilots. Toss up. P38 will turn better, the Fw dives faster. Fw rolls quicker. At 5k and above 20k* the advantage is probably with the 38. *if Fw stays and doesn't dive out.

 That's just a guess though. Don't much like either plane. In a Spit (my campaign ride) I prefer catching a 38 low or co-alt. I can turn with either. I can out climb either. The head on factor is about equal from my point of view. A P38 can't dive away. The Fw will dive out and be gone.

I'd be very interested in seeing the source material on that "duel" and the P-51 out climbing the P-38. Under what conditions?

[alskahawk]

I ll look it up when I get home next week. The other ace was well known also. Just can't remember his name. Might be in Allied Fighter Aces by Mike Spick.

 (im currently over by chattanoga otw to florida)

[Guppy35]

Since Joe Foss was a Marine Ace, I'm not sure what his experience would have been in 51s and 38s.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by alskahawk
So a P38 co-alt with a FW 190 A8. Experienced pilots. Toss up. P38 will turn better, the Fw dives faster. Fw rolls quicker. At 5k and above 20k* the advantage is probably with the 38. *if Fw stays and doesn't dive out.  

As an experienced A8 driver I can assure you this isn't a toss-up at all between experienced pilots.  The 38 wins every time.

Over 20K the A8 begins to turn into a wallowing pile of mush where the 38 is still strong.  In the 10-17k range the 190 has a slim chance.

[Scotch]

slim chance, of getting anything but owned!