190 Series Vs. P38 Series

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I can't find my speed charts but IIRC, the P-38J had a slight speed advantage over the L because of the lighter weight.  The difference was minor, not significant like you state.  

IIRC, speed at 25,000ft for the L is 414mph while the speed for the J at 25,000ft was 420mph.

Widewing's site should have the speed charts that would show the minor difference in speeds.


ack-ack

The arguments about the P-38's max speed are almost never ending. When tested at Eglin Field, the P-38J tested managed 421 mph. There's many sources that point to 414 mph for the P-38L, but that speed reflects the derating of the engines to 1,600 hp by the USAAF. Running factory rated power (both Allison and Lockheed) of 1,725 hp, the P-38L was considerably faster. Speed estimates vary from 420 mph (Rau) up to 440 mph (Bodie). Pilot reports cover that range as well. However, if we examine the P-38J's performance using 150 octane fuel, we probably have a close figure to what the P-38L could manage at factory rated power.

An USAAF test drew the following conclusions:

VII   Conclusions

       a.  In level flight operation a gain of 17 MPH can be obtained by increasing the allowable power from 60 to 70" Hg. (W.E.R.).

       b.  In climb operation a gain of 500 ft/min can be obtained by increasing the allowable power from 60 to 70" Hg.

       c.  Cooling the airplane can be easily maintained at 70" Hg. However, maximum performance can only be maintained by strict maintenance on the duct system to prevent possible leakage.

       c.   The maintenance difficulties experienced throughout the tests were considerable. These consisted mainly of induction, exhaust system, and spark plug failure. However, these difficulties could not be attributed directly to any action of the 44-1 fuel.

My regards,

Widewing

[clerick]

Originally posted by Fianna
I'm pretty sure turn radius and turn rate are the same for both.

Earlier in the post i had posted a pic of some tests that WW had done.  They clearly show the J with a measurable, but not huge, turn advantage.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by Widewing
There's many sources that point to 414 mph for the P-38L, but that speed reflects the derating of the engines to 1,600 hp by the USAAF.

Widewing, the famous 414 M.P.H. figure for the P-38L wasn't obtained from 1,600 h.p., it came from 1,475 h.p.  414 M.P.H. was attained at military power only.

[Castedo]

Originally posted by Widewing
I get a kick out of guys like this...

Define "starts high". 10k, 20k higher? Do both start high, or only the 190? Not that it matters to me, I really don't mind being the low fighter.

Keep in mind that the P-38J is faster over 90% of the altitude range than the Antons, and the difference in acceleration and climb gets increasingly lopsided as you go up. I should remind folks that the last adjustment to the drag model significantly increased the turn radius of all 190s, including the Ta 152.

I fly 190s quite a lot. I'm as capable in them as anyone else. I know where they're weak and strong. I also fly the P-38s a great deal. Air to air, the P-38J/L is superior. When all is said and done, all the 190 can do is split-s and skedaddle.

Among the fighters that perform best in vertical combat, I rate the P-38 as the best of the bunch. Its stability and rudder control is without peer (it's the only fighter than can perform a perfectly controlled hammerhead stall).

Let's add some perspective. The P-51 owns the 190s in a duel. The P-38 owns the P-51 in a duel... Draw the logical conclusion.

My regards,

Widewing

That all american planes are over modeled?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Castedo
That all american planes are over modeled?

My regards,

Widewing

[stephen]

Who said the 190d9 was ez'r to fly than a 38?


 yur nutz, i tell the newbs to up 38's cause theres no tourqe...
and it has the ez'st guns in the game to aim.
And whats this dueling thing, was in a spit16 against an a5 model 190, and when I got to his altitude he did the logical thing, and gained seperation, or as you call it running.

this isnt an aircraft dispute, its a forum for boneheads to hate on tactics, and try to shame good boom and zoomers into making dumb mistakes....like turning against a 38 in a dora.

[Tac]

I did. and you misquote me. I said fly and FIGHT in them.


any idiot can fly any plane in this game, torque or no torque on the plane.

But fighting in it is a completely different thing. In that aspect the 190D9 is literally a plane with training wheelies for those who lack much ACM.

I'll say it again, show me 190D9 that's out of WEP and i'll show you a 190D9 that is very likely to not survive the next fight.

The 38 requires constant SA and good knowledge of ACM to fight in it as it has NO advantage over the rest of the planeset that another plane does a lot better ..instead it happens to be ALMOST good at everything but not enough to bring it on top. The pilot makes the difference.

In the 190D9 the pilot is just there to press the WEP.

[DoNKeY]

Originally posted by stephen
Who said the 190d9 was ez'r to fly than a 38?


 yur nutz, i tell the newbs to up 38's cause theres no tourqe...
and it has the ez'st guns in the game to aim.
And whats this dueling thing, was in a spit16 against an a5 model 190, and when I got to his altitude he did the logical thing, and gained seperation, or as you call it running.

this isnt an aircraft dispute, its a forum for boneheads to hate on tactics, and try to shame good boom and zoomers into making dumb mistakes....like turning against a 38 in a dora.

Sometimes its so accurate though that I'm not even close:aok

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Tac
But fighting in it is a completely different thing. In that aspect the 190D9 is literally a plane with training wheelies for those who lack much ACM.

I'll say it again, show me 190D9 that's out of WEP and i'll show you a 190D9 that is very likely to not survive the next fight.

The 38 requires constant SA and good knowledge of ACM to fight in it as it has NO advantage over the rest of the planeset that another plane does a lot better ..instead it happens to be ALMOST good at everything but not enough to bring it on top. The pilot makes the difference.

In the 190D9 the pilot is just there to press the WEP.

I have to disagree here.  As a 190A-8 pilot (1/4-1/3 of my flights) I have literally NO advantages over any other ac in the game other than roll rate and guns.  It requires very strong SA, good knowledge of ACM's and strong E management skills to stay alive.  You can't just yank and bank in an A8.  Many ACM's are not even feasable given energy states.

That said, against average pilots, as long as I can hold enough E to get 1.5-2K seperation I can control the fight against much more nimble ac and disengage all but the fastest at will.  Just today I was giving a Hurri IIC fits keeping the pressure on him while continually denying him a shot opportunity.

I'll say again, the P-38 is the better fighter but with a full bag of ACM for the 38, the 190 is much more difficult to fight with inside a 2K box.  As I posted earlier, I've fought this way and beat Spits, F4U's, Hurris, F6F's and others on many occasions.

BTW, WEP is definately helpful but not nessesarily required.

[killnu]

is literally a plane with training wheelies for those who lack much ACM.

And what exactly do you call a plane with an extra engine and nose mounted guns (no convergence issues)?  

I have flown them all...they all have an advantage over another in some way.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by killnu
And what exactly do you call a plane with an extra engine and nose mounted guns (no convergence issues)?  

I have flown them all...they all have an advantage over another in some way.

Ahh to see a good 38G dweeb gone bad

But you are correct, if you fly a bird to it's advantages it tends to do OK.

Stephen, I wish you'd stick to one argument.  First it was 190 Hands down over the 38 and now its the 38 that's a newb plane.

Considering that none of the planes we 'fly' are real, the secret still comes down to flying what you have fun in.

For me it's flying a midwar bird that has a lot of history that interests me.  That's my choice.  If you like a latewar bird, go for it.

I like to fly into the fight lower and I'm not worried about 'winning' every engagement.  For me, part of the challenge is defeating the guys with the advantage.  If you want to set up every fight where you have the advantage, so be it.  That's your choice to.  That doesn't make you a better stick then me or vice versa.

This applies to any of the guys who get carried away about the 'greatness' of their bird of choice.  Nothing wrong with having a passion for it unless it begins to blind you to anything else.

Bottom line is as long as it's fun, go for it.

[moot]

There's no mention of fun in Tac's arguments. It's a matter of fact.
I'd refute the "fact" that 190s have no chance versus 38s, but I'd rather the opposition stay in error

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by moot
There's no mention of fun in Tac's arguments. It's a matter of fact.
I'd refute the "fact" that 190s have no chance versus 38s, but I'd rather the opposition stay in error

And as a certifiable 38G dweeb I agree with you.  And I used the word certifiable deliberately

The problem is folks want to argue the merits based on one plane's strengths or another.

That generally doesn't include what the best tactics would be for each particular bird.

In the real world, a 38G for example would never have encountered a 190D9 as the G was gone before the 190D9 entered service.  

That being said I'm fairly confident in it against most 190D9 drivers.  My experience is that 190D9 drivers will used tht alt and E to thier advantage and try and pick me.  If I'm not engaged with another bird I'm confident I can avoid it and hopefully frustrate them enough to start to turn with me down low.

That being said, there are AH 190 drivers out there who can do things with it most can't.  Those guys, who are thankfully few in number generally eat me up.

It's still all about having fun.

[killnu]

Dan, I am not saying any one plane is better than the other...was point of my last post...even a C202 does things better than a P38, or a 190, or a spit, or a....you get my point.   It all comes down to who is at the controls.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by killnu
Dan, I am not saying any one plane is better than the other...was point of my last post...even a C202 does things better than a P38, or a 190, or a spit, or a....you get my point.   It all comes down to who is at the controls.

I'm in absolute agreement with you Josh

The last part of my post was aimed at Stephen and the others who can't see that.