Issues with the Ta152

[Krusty]

The FM in general was enhanced to be much better. However, that's only if it's properly mapped to the hundreds of spots on the wing. If, however, the FM gets updated, but one plane does not, then it's got only a fraction of the sampling points on the new airflow, and it could cause very funky results (hypothetically). Even though the FM in general is updated, the way the FM acts on this plane has not.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by moot
Widewing please give the 152 a try in tight dogfighting.. And then once you've calibrated your brain to that, give the old 152 a try.  There's nowhere near as much inertia, and you can transition between maneuvers a lot more briskly, e.g. in scissors. Just wagging your wings the difference is obvious.  The yaw from torque (or whatever is causing it, I don't know) is huge.
I'll go film some fights if I can find some now.

I sometimes fly it during clinics in the TA, so it gets pushed hard at low speeds. Honestly, I don't see any big differences between AH1 and AH2.

Since I'm off from work for the next 12 days, I'll take it into the TA and do some furballing with the other trainers. I'll run some film too.

My regards,

Widewing

[moot]

Thanks Widewing

[dtango]

Originally posted by Krusty
I don't think the aileron drag is causing the nose to bounce around, like you say. The wingspan isn't 100 feet here. Heck you can get a B24 and use aleraons and NOT have your nose bounce aroudn nearly as bad as the 152. The B25s with their much longer wingspans are far far more stable, but they have not only larger ailerons, but a larger moment arm to cause yawing.

Apples and oranges.  Those are multi-engine aircraft which means you have to factor in the elements thrust offset from CG and propwash on yaw stability.

As far as other single engine fighters go, I don't know of another one that has an aspect ratio near that of the Ta-152 (8.91).  It's more noticeable for the Ta-152 because of this.  I also just took up a Mustang to check as well.  It experiences adverse yaw as well, but the effect is not nearly as pronounced.

Try looking up adverse yaw.  I'm not making this stuff up.  

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Krusty]

I have no adverse yaw at all when flying a mustang, just as an aside. I roll it, and the pipper stays on the target.

[moot]

And I'm not making up that the 152 has worsened... I remember what I thought when I first tried it the day it came out ("not so uber, borderline average for all it's supposed to be"), when I figured it out (killing TnB planes like N1Ks and Spit9s left and right in the first two reverses, and able to outdo 109G10s, spit14s and others flat out), and when the new FM showed up... It was totaly different and I was really disappointed.  It just killed the plane's ability to furball competitively like it used to.
I used to fly it for hours in H2H (maybe 2-3 hours every other night on average), where there were airstarts and endless furballs on the deck... for 1.5 to 2 years or so, maybe more. So I'm not making any of this up.
I know it as surely as I knew the mossie had something going on till the recent fix.

Here's one particular departure that just didn't happen in AH1.  The tail starts to whip out and it just won't get back in the right direction like it used to in AH1.  In AH1 I could use the rudder to really airbrake the 152 (if Stang's reading this he might remember an occurance of this on ndisles, P38L vs 152: "As soon as I saw your tail waggin all over I knew I was in trouble" or something like that), and could do the same top of the barrel roll snap roll, that I do in just about every other plane to force overshoots, that the 152 just can't manage now.
http://rapidshare.com/files/78155008/film19.rar
I'll go film some more.

[TUXC]

I don't remember all the details of the Mosquito flight model bug, but why did everyone instantly agree it was a modelling issue, whereas everyone seems to think that the 152 doesn't have any issues that should be looked in to?

In addition to the 152 having larger wings and a longer nose, the rudder was also enlarged on the and the tail was lengthened. How would the last 2 changes have affected control and stability? I'm assuming a larger vertical stabilizer would help to counteract adverse yaw effects.

Also, why didn't JG301 report any issues with slow speed flight in during their conversion to the 152 when their flight testing included mock dogfights and combat maneuvers at slower speeds? They were very pleased with the performance and handling characteristics of the 152 and any complaints were about things like landing gear.


Edit: moot, I've definitely experienced the tail "whiping out" as well. Never gotten that in any other plane.

[leitwolf]

TUXC, they did. The phrase "longitudinal stability" appears not just once during the development of the 152H.
Also, most of the Ta152s JG301 got were H-0s which lacked both boost systems (MW50 and GM1) and didnt have fuel tanks in the wings which may have helped with handling.

[Krusty]

That wouldn't affect it the way it's acting in this game. A little extra weight in the wings isn't going to throw it around like this.

Especially since they had a fuel tank in the opposite wing to balance out the MW tank. In AH you'll note one wing's gas tank holds more than the opposite wing, as well.

[leitwolf]

All i'm saying is that the AH152 has stability issues - like the real 152 had.
They may not be identical, they might be worse in AH - who knows.

[Krusty]

Leit, I wouldn't say I'm an expert on it, and I'm probably not as well read on the 152 as some, but I HAVE done some reading, and some internet searching, and have read quite a bit about it in the past. Nowhere, ever, have I heard mentioned any instabilities of any kind, nor any flaws.

Where exactly does it say this, and in what context is it said?

[dtango]

Originally posted by Krusty
I have no adverse yaw at all when flying a mustang, just as an aside. I roll it, and the pipper stays on the target.

Watch the slip ball.  The nose wagging effect is there though much harder to detect.  You'll only notice it more if you're flying slow because induced drag is much more pronounced at slower airspeeds.  Try the Spit VIII as well.  You'll see adverse yaw though again not nearly as pronounced as is on the Ta-152.  Adverse yaw is not equal from plane to plane.  As I said earlier high aspect ratio aircraft will tend to have more pronounced yawing forces due to aileron input.

I'm not saying that the Ta-152 shouldn't have as much adverse yaw as it does.  However since the AH FM is based on physics then you have to make a case BASED ON THE PHYSICS that it differs from the physics of a real Ta-152.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[moot]

The 152 was originaly released as HTC meant it to be like, in other words it wasn't released flying differently than they expected the real 152 to fly... It flew as they meant it to fly, so the physics were right.
Now it doesn't fly like it used to (it went from equal or better than the A5 to about as bad or worse than the A8), ergo the physics are wrong.

[moot]

Originally posted by leitwolf
TUXC, they did. The phrase "longitudinal stability" appears not just once during the development of the 152H.
Also, most of the Ta152s JG301 got were H-0s which lacked both boost systems (MW50 and GM1) and didnt have fuel tanks in the wings which may have helped with handling.

In my very virtual opinion, having less power and only a pair of wing tanks' and boost plumbing's worth of weight removed would a worsening power/weight ratio..  The 152 engine doesn't make much power at all without the boost.  I would guess the airframe is pretty cumbersome even without the boost systems.

[TUXC]

Originally posted by leitwolf
All i'm saying is that the AH152 has stability issues - like the real 152 had.
They may not be identical, they might be worse in AH - who knows.

Mustang with a full fusalage tank also was notoriously unstable, but it's not a problem to fly in the game. They had to modify the controls and give orders to pilots to burn off the fusalage tank before engaging in combat.

All that's being asked, just like with the Mosquito, is that HTC take a look at the model. If they think it's fine as is then fair enough, but is this really too much to ask? It wasn't in the Mosquito's case, it shouldn't be in the case of the Ta 152H.