Issues with the Ta152

[leitwolf]

Originally posted by Krusty
[..]Nowhere, ever, have I heard mentioned any instabilities of any kind, nor any flaws.

Where exactly does it say this, and in what context is it said?

I lost all the scanned stuff I had on the 152. But if you don't mind grabbing a book there's a fairly recent one by Dietmar Harmann ("Focke-Wulf Ta 152", ISBN 0-7643-0860-2) and it's in there. You might even find the Book in the evil parts of the Internet for a brief glimpse.

[dtango]

Originally posted by moot
DTango, my point is - why didn't the mossie "convert" well to the latest FM?  Probably for the same reason the 152 wouldn't have - if the current FM is flawed like I suspect it is.

I have no problem with that being a theory.  My issue is that people are treating the theory as fact with no aerodynamic proof.  Flying different than what it did in AH1 is not proving that the FM is flawed.  It only proves that AH1 and AH2 are different.  Show me the theory is indeed true by proving it with aerodynamic fact.  Until then, the FM flaw is just opinion to me and not fact.  

That's just my perspective.  But hey, I'm just another schmoe here so take it for what it's worth - $.02, maybe less .  

Either at 2.06 or somewhere else... At some point it just stopped flying like it did in AH1, and it was nothing like the change for the better that just about every other plane went through.

 
Some planes improved in certain performance parameters, others got worse.  It's an inaccurate presumption to say that all planes changed for the better because they didn't.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[moot]

Originally posted by Widewing
I did encounter that "fishtailing" phenomena, which while a bit disconcerting, but was quickly overcome by easing a bit on AoA. It felt like the fuselage was blanking the rudder, inducing a yaw oscillation.  

That's exactly what it feels like.  It's exactly like I pictured it, but since I was just guessing with no proper aerodynamics knowledge I couldn't use it as any sort of argument.  The updated flow model certainly would have made that part of the model more accurate... But somehow it doesn't feel right as is.  

I flew the 152 a bunch today and yesterday, managed to get used to it again and landed a bunch of streaks, last one 20 kills.. So it still works really well, I have most of the good examples of its shortcomings in stall fights on film, but I don't have the patience to sort through it all right away.
I found the same thing, reducing the AOA and working the rudder and throttle will put the plane back on its tracks, but it costs a lot of degrees and time when you're in a tight fight, e.g. early rolling scissors when both fighters are trying to out brake each other.


DTango, I don't have any aerodynamic proof, you know that..  I'm suspicious of the FM because it just doesn't behave like the old 152 did.  I mean that after flying a lot of planes, you start getting a feeling for what each design and each of its iterations was meant to do, and the present FM doesn't match what the 152 used to be like in AH1.  That's all I've got, but it's a genuine gut feeling. It just doesn't make sense that it'd go from what it was in AH1 to what it is now, for better or worse.
The ball's in your court as far as concise aerodynamics are concerned.. If you're a schmoe, I'm just a pixel pilot who doesn't even look at the instruments when he flies.. e.g. when the sideslip ball is mentionned, I can't relate to that.  It and the rest of the instruments don't mean much to me, I fly completely by feeling.

I can't think of any other plane that changed so much for the worse.. which ones are you thinking of?  They all felt a lot more defined at very low speeds, with the updates, whether they performed better or worse, they stayed true to the character they had in the previous FM.
The 152 doesn't.. that's my gut feeling and it's all I have to offer as argument.  Give the AH1 152 a try and you'll see for yourself.

I just want HTC to give it a look.  I'll be content with whatever they figure is best.

[TUXC]

Widewing, SLED, and moot,

Thanks for taking the 152 for a spin and reporting back on it here. The thing is definitely a fearsome machine (even with the tail trying to run away on you!) and is an especially rude shock to opponents who underestimate its capabilities or are flying the other 190 versions. It can't run away like the Dora can, so many times you're forced to stay and fight and manage your E better. I've never fought an A-5 in one, but it seems like the 152 would have the upper hand it as it does with the Dora. Some of the best fights I've had the last few tours have been in a 152 on the deck and low on gas. Flying like that you begin to see the plane that Reschke described. Still haven't gotten to fight a Tempest yet in one (probably for the better!).

The yaw issue is one that you learn to compensate for the more you fly the plane, but like Widewing said It's not fun to have to worry about it when you have a bandit on your six. It may be that it's simply a bug like the Mosquito had, or it perhaps that's the way it's supposed to be due to the combination of the high aspect wing and the CG shift from the GM-1 equipment. Either way, the point of this thread is simply that I and some others who play this game would be very grateful if it was looked into and revised if necessary. A visual makeover would be great as well, but that's a whole different topic!

[dtango]

Originally posted by moot
I can't think of any other plane that changed so much for the worse.. which ones are you thinking of?  They all felt a lot more defined at very low speeds, with the updates, whether they performed better or worse, they stayed true to the character they had in the previous FM.

For starters the P-51 and the Ki-61 turn performance has suffered, not improved.      Also another example according to an old squaddie of mine (who happens to be an actual aero engr) you could no longer use the snap roll in the Mustang in particular ways.  I'm sure if you examined it and checked with guys like Widewing you'll find other examples.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[33Vortex]

Originally posted by TUXC
Widewing, SLED, and moot,

Thanks for taking the 152 for a spin and reporting back on it here. The thing is definitely a fearsome machine (even with the tail trying to run away on you!) and is an especially rude shock to opponents who underestimate its capabilities or are flying the other 190 versions. It can't run away like the Dora can, so many times you're forced to stay and fight and manage your E better. I've never fought an A-5 in one, but it seems like the 152 would have the upper hand it as it does with the Dora. Some of the best fights I've had the last few tours have been in a 152 on the deck and low on gas. Flying like that you begin to see the plane that Reschke described. Still haven't gotten to fight a Tempest yet in one (probably for the better!).

The yaw issue is one that you learn to compensate for the more you fly the plane, but like Widewing said It's not fun to have to worry about it when you have a bandit on your six. It may be that it's simply a bug like the Mosquito had, or it perhaps that's the way it's supposed to be due to the combination of the high aspect wing and the CG shift from the GM-1 equipment. Either way, the point of this thread is simply that I and some others who play this game would be very grateful if it was looked into and revised if necessary. A visual makeover would be great as well, but that's a whole different topic!

Well said! Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Sled]

I am going to do this because it is Christmas, and I am a nice guy.

Here is my copy of AH1 for anyone who would like it.

Sleds AH1 copy


NOTE: 155MB!


I am hoping this isn't a problem with HTC. I don't see why it would be.

One of the files is an installer for the game. If you have problems using it, don't ask me, that is way beyond my expertise.

Enjoy the blast from the past.

Merry Christmas

[hubsonfire]

I have AH1.14 installed, and the entire HTC folder is only 40.1MB. What else is in there?

[Sled]

Ya, I was in a hurry, just compressed and uploaded it while I was gone. That one has all the terrains and sounds in it, which most don't need.


This one is much smaller.

Sleds AH1 (just the basics)

35MB

[moot]

I've been reading up, and at least two books mention significant yaw instability, as well as pitch to a lesser degree.
The development issues with these and engine problems sound like a real nightmare.

I think the AH 152 matches the books' descriptions qualitatively, but I hope its FM still gets a look the way the 190s did a while back.

[Anaxogoras]

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who can't control the yaw on the Ta-152.

[Yeager]

the Ta152 is the pigs tit.

[Anaxogoras]

Question: in the AH planeset, which other 1945 aircraft do you see less than the Ta-152?

Answer: none.

Provided the aircraft was well-designed and AH models it well, an aircraft that sports 2x20mm and a 30mm cannon, i.e. great firepower, should be a popular aircraft in the arenas, especially if it handles better than a D9 but is almost as fast at lower altitudes (and faster up high).

Who will disagree with the above proposition?

By reductio ad absurdum, then, the Ta-152 is either poorly modeled by AH or was a poorly designed aircraft.  I don't have the expertise to say which one sticks, but one of them has to.  As a new player to AH, my fresh perspective has its disadvantages and its advantages, too.  In this case, I am new to all of the aircraft as AH models them, and the Ta-152 really sticks out to me as a sloshy, awkward to handle aircraft (FYI, I'm not a furballer).  Nothing else comes close.

[Denniss]

Originally posted by moot
I've been reading up, and at least two books mention significant yaw instability, as well as pitch to a lesser degree.

Please name the books you found these claims in. Are they backed up by any primary source (documents, pilot interview) or is it just found inside the text ?

Are these problems from early prototypes or are they said to still exist in the production versions ?

Are those problems specified for the long-winf Ta 152H or for the short-wing Ta 152C or another variant?

[moot]

Anaxogoras you are new and not done cooking yet

Denniss, it's a bit odd.  On the one hand everyone needing the plane or having flown it themselves made no doubts about it, saying they needed the thing asap, that it was superb, and so it went into production with barely 20 or 40 hours in the development models, etc.
On the other hand there are some significant sacrifices made to fix the instabilities, and the criticisms about this are very clear cut.
These and more gremlins are detailed in Dietmar Harmann's "Focke-Wulf Ta 152  The story of the Luftwaffe's late-war, high altitude fighter", and probably "Monogram Close-up 24: Ta 152".  I didn't earmark the exact pages, but I'm sure it was mentionned in Harmann's book, and mirrored in Monogram 24.

The stability problems were almost certainly about the 152H, as I mostly skimmed and skipped the other models' sections.  edit- I just skimmed thru Monogram24, and it mentions the C had much the same yaw problems as the H1.
The problems persisted into production, which is probably not surprising considering how quick the transition between the two was.

Now that I think about it, the sharpest criticism came from the Reichlin chief of testing, or whoever wrote the report found in one of those two books.  His report is quoted almost verbatim.

There were definitely plans for a larger rudder, larger tail-end horizontal control surfaces and stabs, and many combinations of fuel and cooling liquids tanks moved around, reduced and/or just deleted.
So yes, yaw was definitely an issue, and pitch was too, although to a lesser degree.