Issues with the Ta152

[Sled]

I know you guys are dieing to hear what I have to say.

I am starting to feel that the current 152 may be more in line with the real thing than the older versions.

It is a totally unique AC, nothing like it in AH. It is basically a short winged, short tailed, very heavy glider with a high HP engine. Obviously it is not going to fly like any AC in AH. It is going to have issues that other AC don't have, those have been mentioned, and it is going to have advantages that no other AC in AH has.

I did some flying last night in the DA and found some of it's advantages. Flying at 36K 450mph tgs, 50% N/Drop. What a dream! Handles like most AC in AH handle at 18k. fairly easy to hold ALT in a turn, still can climb at 2K FPM. Spiral climbs? no problem, you can't turn as tight as lower ALT, but you can preform most of the maneuvers that are required in ACM, without stalling. Try to do anything with other AC in AH (above 30K)and you will have trouble remaining stable, forget about preforming the maneuver.

Take most any plane to 30K+ (spit 14 might hang with it for a while) and fight a 152, you are going to be dead meat fast.

Now you take her down low and try to turn fight, at 6K against a F4U, 150- IAS, flaps out, pulling hard in a vertical scissors...... BAM, tail end departure.

Does the current AH 152 fly like the old one? from what I am reading, no. But I don't have a hard time believing the real 152 would have some of the same problems that this current AH 152 does.

But hey, I'm just a Power Lineman, who likes to pretend I'm a WWII fighter pilot in the evenings.

[Stang]

Originally posted by moot
I'll sound like a broken record saying it, but I used to out reverse N1Ks for 2 reverses, on the deck.
I dueled Frenchy in a spit14 with it in a knife fight, and I was just barely losing the fight.
I'd also run into Stang in a P38 and him being a little lax was the small difference needed to beat him, whereas I'd lose 1:1s vs. AKAK (all of these in the MA) by small margins, about the same as vs. Frenchy's Spit14.

A night and day difference with today's 152.

Hehe, I remember those fights.  They were some good hi alt duels, and yeah I remeber getting nailed, then seeing "moot shot you down" and being like wtf I flew that like a noob thinking he'd run haha.

[Viking]

Grabbed from various places and added without comment except for this:

Does this sound like the 152 we've got?

In the words of Ofw. Reschke:

    "Two enemy fighters were spotted some eight kilometres to the south-west of the field, making low-level passes over Ludwigslust railway yards. Three Ta 152 took off at once, piloted by the Oblt. Aufhammer, the Ofw. Sattler and myself. We were immediately in contact with the enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests. Flying in n°3 position, I witnessed the Ofw. Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the Tempest pilots had clearly only just registered our presence. Now began a fight at two against two at the ground-level, which was never to climb above 50 metres. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began fully to appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.

    "Pulling ever tighter turns, I got closer and closer to one of the Tempests, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta’s capabilities. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed. My first burst of fire caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage; its pilot immediately engaged its aircraft in a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent and refused to fire another shot. However, the Tempest, which had already taken hits continued desperately to twist and turn, and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually, inevitably, it stalled. The Tempest’s left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us, about one kilometre of the site from Sattler’s crash. The Tempest pilot, the W/O O.J. Mitchell was buried side by side with the Ofw. Sattler next day in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery with full military honours".

[Viking]

Continued:

The only way to get an accurate portrayal of this fine aircraft is to look at the opinions of the men who flew them, cause their combat role was so very limited.....

Despite the fact that the Ta 152 H was intended to combat high-altitude Allied bombers, very few missions of this type were ultimately ever flown.... Despite this no Ta 152s were lost to enemy fire....

III Gruppe pilots of note who transferred to the Stab JG 301 were Fw. Willi Reschke, Uffz. Christoph Blum, Ritterkreuzträger Ofw. Heinz Gossow and Staffelkapitän Oblt. Hermann Stahl all of 9. Staffel, along with Sepp Sattler and Josef Keil of 10. Staffel......

Keil was to achieve ‘acedom’ on the type.... Former Sturmjäger Walter Loos, who had previously flown alongside Walther Dahl in the Stab JG 300 during the summer of 1944 and had achieved some thirty victories also transferred in.... In the last weeks of the war both he and Reschke were awarded the Ritterkreuz..... Given the number of Knights Cross holders flying Ta 152s at the end of the war some writers have considered the Geschwaderstab of JG 301 to be something of a crack unit..

Willi Reschke relates in ‘JG 301/302 Wilde Sau’ ;

“On 23 January 1945 on orders from the OKL (Oberkommando der Luftwaffe) Jagdgruppe III./JG 301 was temporarily taken off operations and designated an Einsatzerprobungsverband, a combat test unit, re-equipping with the legendary Ta 152 – something we’d long given up hoping for…”

In the early hours of 27 January the Gruppe’s pilots were taken by truck to the Neuhausen aircraft plant near Cottbus with orders to ferry the new Höhenjäger to Alteno......


“ Arriving at the airfield at Neuhausen we were confronted with our first sight of the Ta 152 H-1, which with its enormous wingspan and lengthened engine cowl hardly looked like a fighter aircraft at all........ With feelings of unease we walked around the machines drawn up in three rows (twelve aircraft in total). Technicians were on hand to answer our queries..... After a talk on the technical aspects of the machines that lasted barely 30 minutes, we took the aircraft on charge.. I got airborne at 11:08..”

As Reschke opened up the throttle the enormous power developed by the Jumo 213 E forced the pilot back into the seat and after a roll of just a few hundred meters and at 210 kph the big fighter lifted off effortlessly..... Flap and gear retraction was smooth and with the 60cm wide blades paddling through the air the climb to 10,000 meters took just 12 minutes.... At this height the aircraft behaved impeccably..... That same afternoon the twelve aircraft were lined up on the field at Alteno..... The well known, indeed the only known photo of operational Ta 152s published was in all likelihood taken that same day.....

A report sent by Gruppenkommandeur Guth to the OKL relating to this test phase stated that the pilots of III./JG 301 were unanimous in their praise of the new fighter..... Pilots particularly enthused over the fighter’s manoeuvrability and at heights of 6,000 to 8,000 considered it hugely superior.......

An unnamed pilot flying his second sortie in an H-0 completely outmanoeuvred a Fw 190 A-8 flown by an experienced pilot in mock combat at all heights....

Although III./JG 301 had been slated to fully re-equip with the new Ta 152 before resuming operations, there were never more than sixteen to twenty aircraft instead of the planned 35 available..... The dispersed production of the type suffered all sorts of bottlenecks against a background of impending collapse..... The Marienburg assembly plant in East Prussia was soon overrun by the Soviet’s rapid advance, as was ultimately the Cottbus facility itself...... The Soviet advance also soon forced a move from Alteno, which had found itself a front line airfield harbouring a variety of Schlacht and Jabo-Gruppen...... III./JG 301 moved to Sachau, west of Gardelegen, with the Geschwaderstab and the Doras of II./JG 301 moving to Stendal...... These factors resulted in a decision to concentrate the new machines into an enlarged Geschwaderstab as and when they became available and to transfer experienced pilots from III. Gruppe to the Stab....... This took effect from 13 March 1945.....

The first combat sortie flown by a mixed force of Ta 152 Hs and Fw 190 As of III./JG 301 had taken place on 2 March 1945...... That day a powerful 8th Air Force formation of 1,232 bombers screened by 723 fighters was dispatched to Böhlen, Magdeburg and Ruhland....... Airborne from Sachau behind Verbandsführer (formation leader) Oberleutnant Stahl, some twelve Ta 152s climbed away southwards and prepared to do battle with the Mustang escort screening the bombers heading for the Bohlen chemical plant near Leuna.... The sortie ended in disaster when the Ta 152s were engaged......

Willi Reschke has described the events of that day in his history of Jagdgeschwader 301;

“We reached grid square ‘Heinrich-Caesar’ now flying at an altitude of more than 8,000 meters and closed to formate with a Gruppe of Bf 109s that were wearing yellow and red fuselage bands....... We could barely believe our eyes when, moments later, the first tracers split the air around us as Uffz. ’Bubi’ Blum’s Ta 152 came under attack...... The 109s had opened up on us!!! We could hardly return fire on Kameraden from our own Jagdgeschwader and the sortie was a complete debacle”.....

Such had been the secrecy surrounding the introduction of the new fighter and the unfamiliarity of its slender winged silhouette that even JG 301 pilots had mistaken it for enemy aircraft...... Although no losses were incurred and the agility and superior performance of the Ta 152 H allowed them to evade all of the "attackers", the chance to join combat with the P-51s was lost..... Meanwhile the 109s of the newly formed IV./JG 301, largely comprising hastily retrained former He 177 pilots from III./KG ‘Hindenburg’ suffered heavily at the hands of the Mustangs west of Magdeburg......

In the event the 2 March 1945 sortie described previously was one of the last to see large numbers of German fighters in the air in defence of the Reich....... Thereafter most sorties flown were Jabo or Tiefangriffe on both Eastern and Western Fronts....... Although some writers have stated that Ta 152s flew "top-cover" for bases from which Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters operated, this seems unlikely..... The Ta 152s of the Stabsschwarm did fly airfield protection duties for the Doras of II./JG 301 given that the various Gruppen of JG 301 were housed on different fields..

Incidentally the only recorded encounter with P-51s is the incident noted by Kurt Tank himself, who had a narrow escape while flying one of his Ta 152 Hs towards the end of 1944.... He was flying from Langenhagen near Hannover to attend a meeting at the Focke-Wulf plant in Cottbus...... His plane carried armament, but no ammunition. Shortly after takeoff, he was jumped by four Mustangs..... Tank activated his MW 50 boost, opened the throttle wide, and so the story goes, quickly left the Mustangs far behind in a cloud of blue smoke.....

The final victims falling to the guns of the Ta 152 were Russian Yak-9s during the final days of battle around Berlin on April 30, 1945...... Approximately 150 Ta 152 H-1 fighters were manufactured between January 1, 1945 and the arrival of Soviet forces at the Cottbus assembly plant...... No Jagdgruppen ever completely converted to the type..... Most Ta 152 Hs, however, were destroyed on the ground by Allied air attacks while awaiting delivery...... A few Ta 152 Hs were allocated to the Mistel program...... There is little firm information on numbers produced. Harmann has listed Werknummern from 150-001 to 150-040 and 150-167 to 150-169 for a total of 43 aircraft...... There is no information on WNr. -041 to -166...... Some claim all 169 machines were constructed.

With its scintillating performance, numbers of high performance Allied fighters fell to its guns in the final weeks of the war...... Despite the fact that the Ta 152 H was intended to combat high-altitude Allied bombers, very few missions of this type were ultimately ever flown..... Despite this no Ta 152s were lost to enemy fire....

[dtango]

Originally posted by moot
It flew as they meant it to fly, so the physics were right.
Now it doesn't fly like it used to (it went from equal or better than the A5 to about as bad or worse than the A8), ergo the physics are wrong.

Of course, unless their AH1 physics model was (a) incomplete, (b) lacking in fidelity, or (c) wrong to begin with.  But they wouldn't want to change their FM from AH1 to AH2 for any of those reasons right?  Nah, of course not.  Silly me!

Seriously guys, I'm not saying there isn't a problem.  Try making your case with some aerodynamics substance behind it.  Show us why you think the sum of the forces acting on our virtual Ta-152 is invalid.  HTC is very open to reason when you lay out your logic using aerodynamics to clearly explain.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[TUXC]

Originally posted by leitwolf
TUXC, they did. The phrase "longitudinal stability" appears not just once during the development of the 152H.
Also, most of the Ta152s JG301 got were H-0s which lacked both boost systems (MW50 and GM1) and didnt have fuel tanks in the wings which may have helped with handling.

Did a quick search on longitudinal stability to make sure I was thinking of the right axis and found this:

http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamics1/Stability/Page6.html

Apparently longitudinal stability is referring to the pitch axis, and directional stability refers to the yaw axis. So we've seen mention of longitudinal instability in tests (though never from the pilots who flew the plane in combat), but never any mention of directional instability. So back to the original question of why does the tail decide to "whip out" on occasion at slow speed when no other plane does this?

[dtango]

Originally posted by TUXC
So we've seen mention of longitudinal instability in tests (though never from the pilots who flew the plane in combat), but never any mention of directional instability. So back to the original question of why does the tail decide to "whip out" on occasion at slow speed when no other plane does this?

Aircraft are subject to all sorts of destabilizing forces.  Stability refers to how the aircraft reacts to these destabilizing forces.  By definition instability in aerodynamics terms means that instead of opposing a destabilizing force, an unstable aircraft actually cooperates with the destabilizing force instead of opposing it.

Even our AH Ta-152 isn't directionally unstable adverse yaw withstanding.  If our Ta-152 was directionally unstable then instead of the nose wanting to yaw back to it's original position it would continue yawing in it's adverse direction.  Instead the aircraft yaws back into the direction of forward airflow after you stop aileron input.  This means the aircraft is directionally stable, not unstable.

I don't know how else to make it anymore clearer.  Aircraft with high aspect ratios (long wing spans) create more adverse yaw compared to others so why would you expect other AH single engine fighters to have the same amount of adverse yaw as the Ta-152?

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[moot]

Originally posted by dtango
Of course, unless their AH1 physics model was (a) incomplete, (b) lacking in fidelity, or (c) wrong to begin with.  But they wouldn't want to change their FM from AH1 to AH2 for any of those reasons right?  Nah, of course not.  Silly me!

Why would the 152 be an exception?.. Every other plane so far has been updated according to the same rule: they only get done entirely, one at a time.

You're just trying to relativize things here... And seem to be thinking I'm luftwhining this.  I don't know any fancy aerodynamics.  What I do know is what endless hours of stick time in the Ta have taught me. The 152 flies nothing like it used to.
The new FM just doesn't seem like the improvement in accuracy that every other plane (a few exceptions aside, e.g. mossie) did.  I actualy remember testing out the planes in AH2 and I could tell the new FM had much more data flowing through it, and I remember specificaly thinking that it needed improvement like the 2.06 updates brought.  And that the 152 just didn't profit from them like it should have.  The sort of sluggish yaw it has in transitions like scissors, or like you can see in the film I posted is something that would have stood out like a sore thumb in any and all but the most biased WWII propaganda.  It's a behavior that I don't remember at all in the AH1 FM..  

If someone would give me a copy of the old AH1 game, I'd do some side by side tests.  I'm not here to make things up.. This is a win-win thing for me - either the 152 has a problem and it'll be fixed back to what it was, or it really isn't so bad and I'll just adapt and move on.

[dtango]

Originally posted by moot
Why would the 152 be an exception?.. Every other plane so far has been updated according to the same rule: they only get done entirely, one at a time.

When has this been the rule for the FM?  For the graphics yes but not for the flight model, especially in the case of a wholesale change from AH1 to AH2.  I've seen their vector model in AH1.  I've seen their vector model in AH2.  They model the forces differently which means they had to make changes for all their aircraft to operate under the AH2 model.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[moot]

I was told so and have seen things done that way.. "It'll be adressed when we get to that plane", anytime I manage to get an answer about FM updates.

I was describing the beta AH2 FM, the very first time everyone got to try it out, not the 2.06 update.  The 2.06 update is what got the Mossie bugged, wasn't it?

Do you have any of the AH1 installers around?

[dtango]

Yes of course they make updates to airplanes as needed which are applicable to a given physics engine.  Switching from AH1 to AH2 they wholesale revamped their physics engine which means they had to revamp all their planes to work within that new engine.

Did they intend the Ta-152 to behave differently than it did in AH1?  They'll have to answer that question.  Having seen their vector models in AH1 and AH2 in visits to Grapevine, there is no way that the aircraft were not going to behave differently.  Infact their FM has increased in fidelity where you notice things like stall progression and adverse yaw which is a real testament to the fidelity of their improved physics engine.

And for the record I haven't called or implied anyone a luftwhiner .

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Sled]

Originally posted by moot
If someone would give me a copy of the old AH1 game......

Hmmm, lets see. Ya, I got one of those. AAMOF, just got done flying the AH1 TA-152 with it. How much you give me for it?

I wonder what I could get on E-bay for it?

Na, I'm not the only one with a copy of AH1.

Anyway, just messin around. let me know what you need from me and I will see what I can do. I have the game installed on one of my HD's.


Flying the 152 in AH1...... yes there is a difference. the current 152 is more forgiving in stalls (IMO). The Point of stall departure in the old 152 seems about the same as the new. The AH1 152 does not have the yaw when rolling like the new one does. It will yaw some, but only when rolling sharply from left to right over and over. quick rolls with a pause, not much yaw. Turn rate seems much better in the old, at all speeds. Old 152 feels more snappy, and nimble.

New 152, you can't break the wings off. Old? Oh yes very much so, with ease.

Flat spins about the same, (in AH1) when hanging on prop, but much harder to recover from (IMO).

Tail does seem to stay in line much better in the AH1 version.

Just some quick notes, only flew for about 20min.

AH1, was like a real blast from the past. couldn't remember how to change countries .

[moot]

DTango, my point is - why didn't the mossie "convert" well to the latest FM?  Probably for the same reason the 152 wouldn't have - if the current FM is flawed like I suspect it is.
Like I said, I recognized the improved FM in AH2, but at some point the 152 got the short end of the conversion to it.  Either at 2.06 or somewhere else... At some point it just stopped flying like it did in AH1, and it was nothing like the change for the better that just about every other plane went through.  Everyone said so.. Everyone in Wotan's III./JG2, everyone I fly with today.. everyone who mentionned it over the years since then. SLED says so in the above post.  Widewing, Bodhi, and you are the first ones to actualy argue that there's nothing wrong with it, or even that it flies better than the AH1 Ta152.

For my part I don't have a problem with the flat spin like you get on airstarts, or the landing behavior. That's nothing, and it was already characteristic back then.  The only thing I think is wrong is the departure you can see in the film I posted.  


SLED - Thanks, let me know when you've got the link ready

[Sled]

Originally posted by moot
The only thing I think is wrong is the departure you can see in the film I posted.  


SLED - Thanks, let me know when you've got the link ready

Looked like operator error to me.


Ehem.....   Hey I got your Christmas present ready. need an E-mail for you.


And remember I like Beer, Porter is my favorite

[Widewing]

Last evening after a brief foray in LWA Orange (flew one sortie in an A-20), I headed to the TA to find a dancing partner for the Ta 152. Cowboy45 was obliging and I played tag with his F4U-1A. Overall, the Ta 152 accounted for itself very well. Certainly unable to compete in terms of turning, the 152 worked very well at keeping the fight going up and down. Once establishing a solid E advantage by being able to convert better vertically, the 152 dominated in the E fight, which prompted Cowboy45 to comment, "I've never seen a 152 flown that way." Cowboy45 is a typical MA vet and a member of Daddog's squad. He's also a very pleasant gent.

I did encounter that "fishtailing" phenomena, which while a bit disconcerting, but was quickly overcome by easing a bit on AoA. It felt like the fuselage was blanking the rudder, inducing a yaw oscillation. This is similar but more violent than the yaw oscillation experienced when landing nose high. My first thought was, "this thing needs a taller rudder".

During the fight, I slowed to about 66 mph coming over the top of a vertical reverse several times. I had to work the rudder vigorously to prevent the fighter from yawing out of the desired path. Nonetheless, I was able to keep it gathered up and this behavior is largely an annoyance rather than a serious handicap. If you know it's coming, countering it is not difficult. However, I wouldn't want to be on the ragged edge with a bad guy on my six and have to ease off to stop the tail wag.

Well anyway, I have about 19 minutes of film to be edited and I'll post the more useful portions in short segments.

Later, I took the 190A-5 up and repeated the exercise. Almost immediately, I realized that the A-5 is no match for the 152. The 152 is far less twitchy and more forgiving of high AoA maneuvering. Where the A-5 would snaproll, the 152 merely wags its tail a bit. Where the A-5 bucks and shakes in a hard turn, the 152 is stable and graceful, carving the turn with far greater precision. There's no doubt in my mind that the 152 is the best dogfighter of the 190 series.

The more I fly the 152, the more I like it. Yeah, it has some odd handling quirks, but I think I can work around them. The other night, I used the 152 to hammer a CV raid. I killed seven before a lack of fuel required me to RTB with 109 20mm cannon rounds remaining (our base was too hot to attempt a landing). This total included killing a pair of F6Fs down in the weeds. I guess they never expected the 152 to maneuver with them because each one did no more than turn 180 degrees, which was countered by a high yo-yo and then a 30mm enema.

My regards,

Widewing