Tiger II

[VansCrew1]

Originally posted by ssDruid
Just to add my two cents into the conversation. Vanscrew you really need to do more reading on armored warfare. The HVAP (High Velocity Armor Projectile) does not pop turrets. In all actuality it is the HE round (High Explosive) that traditionally pops the turret off of armored vehicles. The high velocity kinetic energy rounds just normally pass through the armor plate and create a spall effect inside the vehicle.
Do some research.

in the game it dose. Close range a Tiger camping a hanger i popped up in a T-34 and shot him in the turret(left side) and i smoked it. And the HE in the game tracks people most of the time. If you get a butt shot with a HE round you may kill him.

[Larry]

[VansCrew1]

i dont see the pictures.

[Spikes]

I heard HVAP was lighter than the AP,therefore less powerful. But the AP is heavier and more lethal.

[moot]

Lighter but faster, initialy.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Karnak
but the main gun on a Panzer III or Type 97 Chi-Ha is about as usefull as Polish lances against a Tiger or T-34's armor.

When did this happen?   It is a common myth.    I'll never understand why this keeps being mentioned.

But speaking of Polish Cavalry charges in WWII, they were almost all a success.

1. September 1 - Battle of Mokra - 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment took by surprise the elements of German 4th Panzer Division, which retreated in panic.  During the charge, lances were used.
   
2. September 1 - Battle of Janów - 11th Polish Legion Uhlan Regiment on a recce mission encountered a similar unit of German cavalry. Lieut. Kossakowski ordered a cavalry charge, but the enemy did not accept battle and after a short clash withdrew towards their positions.
   
3. September 2 - Battle of Borowa Góra - 1st squadron of the 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment encountered a squadron of German cavalry in the village of Borowa. A charge was ordered, but the Germans withdrew.
   
4. September 11 - Osuchowo - 1st squadron of the 20th Uhlan Regiment charged through the German infantry lines to avoid encirclement, and broke through. There were negligible losses on both sides.
   
5. September 12 - Kałuszyn - 4th squadron of the 11th Polish Legion Uhlan Regiment charged overnight at the German positions in the town of Kałuszyn. Although the charge was a mistake (the Polish infantry commander issued a wrong order which was understood as a charge order while the cavalry was meant to simply move forward), it was a success. After heavy casualties on both sides, the town was retaken in the early morning.
   
6. September 13 - Mińsk Mazowiecki - 1st squadron of the 2nd Grochów Uhlan Regiment charged German infantry positions, but was repelled by German MG and artillery fire.
   
7. September 13 - Maliszewo - 1st squadron of the 27th Uhlan Regiment was engaged in heavy fighting near the village of Maliszewo. After the Germans were beaten and started to retreat towards the village, the Poles charged and took the village along with a large number of German prisoners.
   
8. September 15 - Brochów - elements of the 17th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the German positions to frighten the enemy infantry. Shortly before reaching the range of enemy weapons, they dismounted and continued their assault on foot; the attack was successful.
 
9. September 16 - Dembowskie - a platoon from the 4th squadron of the 17th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards a small German outpost located around a foresters' hut. The small number of Germans withdrew.

10. September 19 - Battle of Wólka Węglowa - Most of the 14th Jazłowiec Uhlan Regiment (without its MGs and AT platoon) was ordered to probe the German lines near the town of Wólka Węglowa. After elements of 9th Malopolska Uhlan Regiment arrived, the group was ordered to charge through the German lines to open the way towards Warsaw and Modlin for the rest of Polish forces who were withdrawing from the Battle of Bzura. The Poles charged through a German artillery barrage and took the German infantry by surprise.  Polish losses were high (205 killed and wounded), the German losses remain unknown, but the Polish unit broke through and was the first to reach Warsaw after the Battle of Bzura.

11. September 19 - Łomianki - recce squad of 6th Mounted Artillery Detachment charged through the German lines in the town of Lomianki and paved the way for the rest of the unit to Warsaw.

12. September 21 - Battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa - 3rd squadron of the 1st Mounted Detachment (improvised) charged through German infantry who were preparing to assault the Polish positions. The preparations were paralysed and the Germans withdrew.
 
13. September 23 - Krasnobród - 1st squadron of the 25th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the town of Krasnobród. After heavy casualties, they reached the hilltop on which the town was located. A unit of German organic cavalry from the German 8th Infantry Division countercharged from the hill, but was repelled and the Poles captured the town and took the HQ of the division, together with its commander and about 100 German soldiers. 40 Polish combatants previously taken prisoner by the Germans were also freed.

14. September 24 - Husynne - reserve squadron of the 14th Jazlowiec Uhlan Regiment (some 500 sabres), reinforced with an improvised cavalry unit of police and some remnants of divisional organic cavalry, was ordered to break through the Soviet infantry surrounding the Polish positions in the village of Husynne. The charge was lead by the mounted police, and the Soviet forces withdrew in panic.  However, the attack was soon halted by a strong Soviet tank unit. Casualties were similar on both sides.

15. September 26 - Morańce - 27th Uhlan Regiment twice charged an entrenched German infantry battalion in the village of Morańce. Both charges were repelled with heavy casualties (the Poles lost 20 KIA and about 50 wounded, German losses are unknown). After the second charge the Germans sent out a soldier with a white flag and, after a short discussion with the Polish commander of the Nowogródek Cavalry Brigade, the Germans withdrew.

The Polish had the most to lose and fought with honor in WWII.

[E25280]

Originally posted by SpikesX
I heard HVAP was lighter than the AP,therefore less powerful. But the AP is heavier and more lethal.

To say it is less powerful is incorrect.  There would be no reason to develop such a round if it was less effective at penetrating armor than standard steel shot.

When you find the penetrating power of your basic AP insufficient, the only way to get more penetrating power from your existing gun is to increase the velocity of the projectile.  To increase the velocity, you can do one of two things:  increase the charge, or lighten the round.  You can only increase the charge so much before you damage your breech, so you approach a point where you must lighten the round.

Light alloys when striking a harder, denser material (like steel) tend to shatter.  The HVAP round (High Velocity Armor Piercing) is a US term for a type of ammunition often called APCR (Armor Piercing Composite Rigid).  It is a dense core, usually tungsten, surrounded by a light alloy sheath.  The sheath allows the small, dense core to fit in the larger caliber gun.  Because the projectile is lighter overall, the muzzle velocity of the round is faster.  Because the core is dense, it will not shatter when striking the enemy armor and is more likely to penetrate.

That being said, the HVAP for the T-34 in AH seems to me to be underpowered.  Perhaps this is what lead you to your conclusion.

[DaYooper]

but the main gun on a Panzer III or Type 97 Chi-Ha is about as usefull as Polish lances against a Tiger or T-34's armor.

Would the early/mid/late war arenas settle this?

Panzer III's in early war would be historically accurate and a fair match against the M-3's, M-8's and T-34's found there.

Gv's in this game give the jabo drivers targets as well as funding further developments for everyone else.  I've never understood the hostility of some pilots against gv's.

[OOZ662]

Originally posted by DaYooper
T-34's found there

Not the one we have...

[AquaShrimp]

So APCR is like the grandfather of Sabot rounds.

[BigPlay]

Originally posted by E25280
To say it is less powerful is incorrect.  There would be no reason to develop such a round if it was less effective at penetrating armor than standard steel shot.

When you find the penetrating power of your basic AP insufficient, the only way to get more penetrating power from your existing gun is to increase the velocity of the projectile.  To increase the velocity, you can do one of two things:  increase the charge, or lighten the round.  You can only increase the charge so much before you damage your breech, so you approach a point where you must lighten the round.

Light alloys when striking a harder, denser material (like steel) tend to shatter.  The HVAP round (High Velocity Armor Piercing) is a US term for a type of ammunition often called APCR (Armor Piercing Composite Rigid).  It is a dense core, usually tungsten, surrounded by a light alloy sheath.  The sheath allows the small, dense core to fit in the larger caliber gun.  Because the projectile is lighter overall, the muzzle velocity of the round is faster.  Because the core is dense, it will not shatter when striking the enemy armor and is more likely to penetrate.

That being said, the HVAP for the T-34 in AH seems to me to be underpowered.  Perhaps this is what lead you to your conclusion.

absolutely correct, you must be a tanker

[E25280]

Originally posted by BigPlay
absolutely correct, you must be a tanker

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  

[splitatom]

Originally posted by E25280
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  

thats realy old but it is:rofl

[jtdragon]

the firefly M4 was just a upgunned Sherman, the armor was still the same as the earlier M4. A PZIV's 75 should cut right thur it but here you have to hit them 3/4 times for a kill. As for killing tigers the 76 was better than the 75 but still they had a problem killing tigers. they were desgined to take on the PZV (Panthers)

[JagdTankker]

See Rule #10