Author Topic: Treadmill redux  (Read 1129 times)

Offline eskimo2

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2007, 05:56:40 AM »
Chairboy;
Read and answer:

Identical triplets Al, Bob and Chuck buy three identical bush planes. Since they live in Alaska, all three brothers buy and install large balloon “tundra tires” and wheels. The wheels, planes and brothers are identical. All three planes will take off from a normal runway in exactly 100 feet and at exactly 50 mph. The brothers fly their planes to an air show in Wisconsin. At the air show Bob finds and buys a set of fantastic wheels. These wheels are exactly like the wheels he has on his plane in every way except they have half the mass. Their mass is distributed in the same proportion as the wheels that he plans on replacing. Al thinks Bob is silly and is content with his old wheels. Bob thinks that Al will eventually want a set, so he buys a second set to give to Al on their birthday.

Bob finds a buyer for his old heavy wheels and installs a set of his new lightweight ones. He loads the second set into his plane so that it is balanced just as it was before. Bob’s plane now weighs exactly the same as Al’s and Chuck’s, but its wheels have half the mass.

Meanwhile, Chuck runs into a magician who sells him a set of magic wheels. These wheels are exactly like the wheels he has on his plane in every way except they have no mass. Chuck installs his magic wheels. He loads his old set into his plane so that it is balanced just as it was before. Chuck’s plane now weighs exactly the same as Al’s and Bob’s, but its wheels have no mass.

When the brothers leave the air show they request a formation take off. They line up wing tip to wing tip and apply power at exactly the same time. All three planes weigh exactly the same and must hit 50 mph to lift off. When Chuck’s plane lifts off his wheels stop spinning instantly since they have no mass. Since they have no mass, they also have no rotational inertia. When Al’s plane lifts off his heavy wheels are spinning at 50 mph and have considerable rotational inertia. When Bob’s plane lifts off his half-weight wheels are spinning at 50 mph and have exactly half the rotational inertia as Al’s wheels.

Where did the rotational inertia and energy in Bob’s and Al’s wheels come from?
How did the rotational inertia and energy now stored in Bob’s and Al’s wheels affect the take off distance of their planes?
We know that Al’s plane will still take off in exactly 100 feet; where will Bob’s and Chuck’s planes take off?

Offline Holden McGroin

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2007, 06:06:14 AM »
So we put a hang glider into the loop with Vorticons brother riding a bike on a set of rollers.

When Vorticon pushes his brother off the rollers, will he be able to fly?

a. if he has enough airspeed he can.

Does it matter if he was riding the rollers fast or slowly?

a. nope
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Offline eskimo2

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2007, 06:07:52 AM »

Offline Octavius

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Re: Treadmill redux
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2008, 09:17:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Mythbusters _is_ doing an episode where they'll test this, I've seen a teaser video.  


That episode will be airing on Wednesday:  Plane on a conveyer belt :)


edit:  better link
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 09:20:27 PM by Octavius »
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Offline JB73

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Re: Re: Treadmill redux
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2008, 11:05:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Octavius
That episode will be airing on Wednesday:  Plane on a conveyer belt :)


edit:  better link
O'Rly??

I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline Octavius

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2008, 11:15:58 PM »
You really took the time to screen capture, edit, resize, and host just to tell me that?
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Offline JB73

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2008, 11:21:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Octavius
You really took the time to screen capture, edit, resize, and host just to tell me that?
yup :D

I am bored in a hotel in Grand Rapids, MI...

what else can I do? :lol :cry
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline Chairboy

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2008, 11:27:25 PM »
Here ya go, for those unable to navigate the treacherous waters of discovery.com:


It was so tempting to open tabs called 'TrannyCentral' or something for someone to 'discover', but I didn't have the heart.  Too easy.
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Offline Wes14

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2008, 11:37:57 PM »
I think this thread may end up killing the server.. :noid

And, I have an idea. If the treadmill is allowed to keep the speed of the airplane, but not react simultaneously, couldn't you take a 747, apply reverse thrusters to get the plane attempting to go backwards. Then if you can manage this without blowing up the engines! Throw them into full throttle forward, so the plane launches forward. Leaving the treadmill trying to react.  :confused:
Warning! The above post may induce: nausea, confusion, headaches, explosive diarrhea, anger, vomiting, and whining. Also this post may not make any sense, or may lead to the hijack of the thread.

-Regards,
Wes14

Offline MORAY37

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2008, 02:15:35 AM »
Of course it will take off... in the same amount of runway it normally takes to get air over the wings.  The conveyor has absolutely no effect on the takeoff though.... it's just increasing wheelspin.
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Offline FrodeMk3

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2008, 02:27:47 AM »
I can't believe, with as many of you that play AH, that don't know the basic's of flight. Not all, many stated the correct answer that lift is generated by airflow over the wings' and control surfaces.

The stupid treadmill thing only makes the wheels spin faster than normal.

Airplanes such as WWII carrier aircraft that launched from carriers' not equipped with a catapult, usually had their CV steaming into the wind at full or flank speed, helping to give an extra 30+ knots' of airflow over the wings' by the time they reached the forward edge of the deck. If the aircraft could reach 60+ knots on the deck on their own, the combined total of 60+(Plane) and 30+(Ship into the wind) would give 90+. Usually enough to rotate off, with the use of flaps.

That was the first thing I thought of, when I saw this.

Offline FrodeMk3

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2008, 02:33:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
nore treadmills....hell no wheels either!

Just thought of this.

It's the same concept of tail wind on take off.  Increased tail wind on take off reduces lift and requires more speed to counter effect it.

Thus if you had an infinate amount of space to take off with and a tail wind that constantly matched the speed of the air craft it would never take off.  It would continue to accelorate until the mechanical limitations of the AC are exceeded.

DONZO,

A treadmill that matched the speed of the wheels would not allow a plane to accelorate reletive to the position of the earth......thus no air flow over the wings  The wheels could be spinning at 300mph but the airplane is going 0.

It's like having a bike or a car on a dyno.  The aerodynamics of a car have no play in vehicle on a dyno because there is no air flow over it.

a y


I believe, gunslinger, that the Propellor or Jet thrust, depending on what you're using, would push against that tailwind, accelerating the A/C even faster than what wind there was, Thus getting airflow in the right direction over the wings (But you might have a higher ground takeoff speed as a result.) I believe that the A/C would still fly...

Offline deSelys

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Treadmill redux
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2008, 03:07:30 AM »
Eskimo, I raise your inertia-less and infinite speed conveyor belt with an infinite air grip propeller and the plane will be airborne. I win!

This problem is infinitely stupid and useless IMO.
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