They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...

[crockett]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
I pay for you, you pay for me, so everyone is on the safe side, whats the Problem ?
It works, at least here.

Unfortunately the people in this country have yet to figure that out. Too many selfish people I guess that are scared to death of change.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by crockett
Unfortunately the people in this country have yet to figure that out. Too many selfish people I guess that are scared to death of change.

Selfish?  You described yourself perfectly.  You want everyone else to pay for you.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by crockett
I don't think I'm  180 degrees off on this. You say part of the reason things cost so much is because people don't pay. Why do you think most of them don't pay?

Most of them don't pay because they are illegal aliens. That's right.  a large percentage of people that don't pay are here illegally.  Did you really read what I posted?

If health care was "AFFORDABLE" more people would be paying their bills.

I already told you why health insurance isn't affordable for many. The solutions are right there in my post.  Were the govt to take control of pricing without the two fixes I've mentioned, EVERY hospital in the US would be bankrupt inside of a few months. Think about it. You want to reduce how much hospitals charge but not reduce how much it costs them to operate. Does this make sense to you? You seem to have the notion that hospitals make tons of profit. Contrarily, many hospitals are already running in the red, many have closed down due to financial collapse,  yet you want to reduce their income without reducing their costs. While your idea of everyone having insurance is a noble one, your solution to the problem would destroy the health care industry, literally, in less than a year.

[crockett]

Originally posted by LePaul
Selfish?  You described yourself perfectly.  You want everyone else to pay for you.

Actually if you pay for health insurance you are already paying for everyone else. As it was already posted in this thread. Part of the reason medical treatment costs so much in this country is because there are a lot of people whom can't pay. So in return hospitals charge more for their services to cover the costs. The extra costs is then passed on to you by way of insurance premiums.

If you actually used your brain, you would understand that I have said what I want 4 or 5 times in this thread. However it seems you and Larz failed reading and comprehension class in school. (obviously another topic)

If you understood this you would have read that I asked for "affordable" insurance. I did say free health care would be nice but I also said I know that will never happen.

So how you come to the conclusion, that I somehow expect you to pay for me is beyond me. Then again I guess it comes back to the "reading & comprehension" thing again. You should actually support "affordable" health insurance because it would cost you less.

That's the whole theory behind "affordable", hence the need for govt regulation. Then again, I'm arguing with two of the guys on this forum whom still can't figure out what "global warming" means.

[Eagler]

strange how those stating "it works here" are the same countries where if the sicko has the funds, they travel here for treatments as we do it faster and better..

nope, don't care to have my doctors office look like my local DMV .. the waiting room is bad enough.

like it has been stated already .. NO ONE in the US is denied treatment TODAY. Just pop your head into your local ER about midnight during the next full moon phase and take a poll...

[crockett]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
Most of them don't pay because they are illegal aliens. That's right.  a large percentage of people that don't pay are here illegally.  Did you really read what I posted?


 

I already told you why health insurance isn't affordable for many. The solutions are right there in my post.  Were the govt to take control of pricing without the two fixes I've mentioned, EVERY hospital in the US would be bankrupt inside of a few months. Think about it. You want to reduce how much hospitals charge but not reduce how much it costs them to operate. Does this make sense to you? You seem to have the notion that hospitals make tons of profit. Contrarily, many hospitals are already running in the red, many have closed down due to financial collapse,  yet you want to reduce their income without reducing their costs. While your idea of everyone having insurance is a noble one, your solution to the problem would destroy the health care industry, literally, in less than a year.

Economics works in magical ways some times.

You can go the serve only a few people, but charge those people out the bellybutton route. (our current health care system)

Or you can serve in bulk and charge a fair affordable price and still make the profits by dealing in volume.

Health care is a different ball game, because every nurse and doctor takes a oath to give service in a ethical manor. Ethics or Profit is not a choice which should be made in reguards to health care.

Yet, we obviously can't snap our fingers and have a magic system tomorrow nor will it ever be a easy thing to fix. Should that stop us from doing it?

You act as if it can't work, yet it works in every other civilized western country in the world. Sure it might be tough to fix and cost some money, but it's never going to get cheaper or any easier to fix later. You can bet your bellybutton it will have to be fixed at some point because even under the current system hospitals are going broke and closing their doors.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Eagler
strange how those stating "it works here" are the same countries where if the sicko has the funds, they travel here for treatments as we do it faster and better..

[/b]

Rubbish. The quality of our healthcare is in the absolute top of the world. And its free. To claim or insinuate that the quality is any lower here than in the US is pure BS.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Eagler
strange how those stating "it works here" are the same countries where if the sicko has the funds, they travel here for treatments as we do it faster and better..

nope, don't care to have my doctors office look like my local DMV .. the waiting room is bad enough.

like it has been stated already .. NO ONE in the US is denied treatment TODAY. Just pop your head into your local ER about midnight during the next full moon phase and take a poll...

You are very wrong. No one is denied emergency treatment in this country. However people are most definitely denied treatment even for life threatening illnesses and many of those people DO have insurance.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Tigeress
It's about money and fairness.

What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?

This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy.

[SteveBailey]

[

You can go the serve only a few people, but charge those people out the bellybutton route. (our current health care system)

I've already explained why prices are high. You are blaming the wrong people for the situation.  

Ethics or Profit is not a choice which should be made in reguards to health care.

 

so you expect Dr's to go to school for nearly a decade.. then not make a profit?  You expect nurses to work for no profit?

You act as if it can't work

It simply cannot work the way you've suggested.  You would destroy healthcare in the US... as I've already stated.

current system hospitals are going broke and closing their doors.

Yet your solution is to have hospitals charge less without reducing their operating cost.  I'll ask you again.. it would be nice if you actually answered questions you were asked, does this make sense to you?

[Gunthr]

   Originally posted by Gunthr
    So true... imagine walking into your local Division of Motor Vehicles and trying to get some immediate attention... sorry, take a number, have a seat... these are the same people who will be providing your health care. Want to complain about it? take another number...



Crockett said:  I guess you have never waited in your doctor's office. Funny anytime I've seen a doctor I'd say on average I've waited 30mins in the lobby.. Then if I'm lucky another 20 mins in the private room.

Guess waiting at the tag off isn't so bad. Hell I just renewed my tag last month and I only waited about 15 mins. Damn the man!.

Crocket if you are waiting 30 minutes to see a doctor now, with national healthcare you are going to be waiting much much longer and there won't be a thing you can do about it.  And that will be the least of your worries.  Look at VA hospitals - not exactly a good model for dispensing government care are they? National health care would be a disaster in this country.  In governmental bureaucracies in the US, you cannot get rid of incompetents, who will keep getting bigger salaries year after year regardless.  Then, with government involvement, you get all the regulations like racial quotas and affirmative action in the hiring of surgeons, physicians, and nurses, and all the rest.  

Then, as Lazs points out, there is the question of whether the government, with its monopoly on violence and coercion, should be ethically allowed to forcibly make me pay for someone elses healthcare if I don't want to.  I think its wrong.  We should all have a free choice in the matter.  There is enough government interference in our lives as it is.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Hortlund
What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?

This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy.

Darwin said it best ..

[Gunthr]

What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?

This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy. Hortlund

There are cultural systems for this, ie  Family, Friends, Churches, Charitable Organizations, Community and so on.  We already provide welfare and free health care to those you listed.  We don't have to get national healthcare to take care of them.

[crockett]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
[


Yet your solution is to have hospitals charge less without reducing their operating cost.  I'll ask you again.. it would be nice if you actually answered questions you were asked, does this make sense to you?

I'm not going to keep saying the same thing over and over so here it is as simple as I can put it.

Insurance.. prices are insane and insurance companies are caught in the middle of making a choice between paying for a service or making a profit. We all hope they don't put profit first, but we all know that's not the case in the real world.

Medication.. in this country costs two to three times more than it does in other countries such as Canada and even Mexico. For this there is no excuse. There is no excusable reason other than greed. This is a clear cut area that MUST have govt control and regulation.

If the prices of medication were cut in half and we paid the same as Canadians pay. Well guess what? Insurance would cost us less too. Hospitals would charge less as well. Why is that? Because they would be paying less.

Sure it cuts into the billion of dollars of profits pharmaceutical companies make by ripping of the people of this country. Yea know what? I don't give a damn. Seems to me if they couldn't make a profit selling the very same drugs to Canadians and Mexicans.. Well I'm sure they wouldn't sell them now would they?

Just this one thing alone would cut the cost of health care in this country by massive amounts. As medication makes up the biggest expense to both insurance companies and the end user.

After that we can start working on other things, but just this one thing would cut prices by a tremendous amount. The pharmaceutical companies are as big of a problem or bigger than illegals.

At this point illegals and lawsuits is a whole different ball game. One thing is certian our govt damn sure COULD put the stop to the price gouging that goes on in the pharmaceutical market.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Eagler
Darwin said it best ..

Lets just hope you never need a life saving surgery and then look to your insurance company whom turns down your treatment. That would be an ironic thing.