Author Topic: They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...  (Read 2449 times)

Offline crockett

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2007, 11:12:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
Crocket if you are waiting 30 minutes to see a doctor now, with national healthcare you are going to be waiting much much longer and there won't be a thing you can do about it.  And that will be the least of your worries.  Look at VA hospitals - not exactly a good model for dispensing government care are they? National health care would be a disaster in this country.  In governmental bureaucracies in the US, you cannot get rid of incompetents, who will keep getting bigger salaries year after year regardless.  Then, with government involvement, you get all the regulations like racial quotas and affirmative action in the hiring of surgeons, physicians, and nurses, and all the rest.  

Then, as Lazs points out, there is the question of whether the government, with its monopoly on violence and coercion, should be ethically allowed to forcibly make me pay for someone elses healthcare if I don't want to.  I think its wrong.  We should all have a free choice in the matter.  There is enough government interference in our lives as it is.


Actually the VA hospitals in this country were some of the best in the country. They didn't go to **** until the management was put into the hands of private business whom had to worry about profits.

That was the fault of our president elect and his cronies whom claim to support our troops.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 11:15:36 AM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline Tigeress

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2007, 11:45:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?

This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy.


To understand my personal stance you can't just take a single sentence out of context like that.

Please re-read, in full, the post from which it came, dear.

You will see my feelings do agree with your feelings and also validates the rational of others as far as their feelings about how their money is spent.

I just don't purport to spend other's money.  I leave that to the professional money spenders in Congress.

I am, helplessly, a peacemaker, dear.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 11:49:44 AM by Tigeress »

Offline BigGun

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2007, 11:46:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund


Rubbish. The quality of our healthcare is in the absolute top of the world. And its free. To claim or insinuate that the quality is any lower here than in the US is pure BS. [/B]


You can't seriously be naive enough to think it is free, or anywhere close to being free?

Offline Tigeress

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2007, 11:55:16 AM »
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hortlund


Rubbish. The quality of our healthcare is in the absolute top of the world. And its free. To claim or insinuate that the quality is any lower here than in the US is pure BS. [/B]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trust me when I say its not free... someone is paying for it in the form of taxes.

I have needed to use health care services in other countries due to extensive international business travel over the years and I can tell you from personal experience... our US health care delivery sucks sucks sucks, relative to delivery I have used in other countries.

I wish I could have delivered my two sons in a good hospital in Paris.

We may be on the bleeding edge of medical science but health care delivery just plain sucks and is God awful expensive relative to any other country I know of! I had to pay out of pocket so I was aware of the expenses.

IMV, we in the US are getting RIPPED OFF!

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 12:14:48 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Eagler

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2007, 11:59:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
Lets just hope you never need a life saving surgery and then look to your insurance company whom turns down your treatment. That would be an ironic thing.


please post a link to a credible story were the person died because the insurance company said No to such a surgical procedure
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Offline Tigeress

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2007, 12:03:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
please post a link to a credible story were the person died because the insurance company said No to such a surgical procedure


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22357873/

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_Aetna_Loses.asp

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« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 12:21:17 PM by Tigeress »

Offline BigGun

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2007, 12:07:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
please post a link to a credible story were the person died because the insurance company said No to such a surgical procedure


I think there was a case in media just week or two ago.

Offline Getback

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2007, 12:17:45 PM »
One of the east coast states, I think New Hampshire, started a statewide  healthcare program and in less than a year it exceded the budget by millions.

Stupid California is already in the red 15 billion and this program costs 15 billion.

With the US being the most taxed western nation already I can't even imagine what we will start giving up to pay for National Healthcare. I'm thinking Freedom completely. Think about this, if the government is running it they then will start making rules you will absolutely have to abide by in order to meet the terms of their coverage. Maybe you have to check every week to see if you exercised or did you have a beer etc. Worse yet some 22 year old clerk may decide that you lived long enough.

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Offline Tigeress

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2007, 12:22:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Getback
One of the east coast states, I think New Hampshire, started a statewide  healthcare program and in less than a year it exceded the budget by millions.

Stupid California is already in the red 15 billion and this program costs 15 billion.

With the US being the most taxed western nation already I can't even imagine what we will start giving up to pay for National Healthcare. I'm thinking Freedom completely. Think about this, if the government is running it they then will start making rules you will absolutely have to abide by in order to meet the terms of their coverage. Maybe you have to check every week to see if you exercised or did you have a beer etc. Worse yet some 22 year old clerk may decide that you lived long enough.


That would be Massachusetts, I believe.

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Offline SteveBailey

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2007, 12:40:41 PM »
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I'm not going to keep saying the same thing over and over so here it is as simple as I can put it.


I asked you a "Yes or no"  question which you have never answered. You are not saying the same thing over and over again. You are so worried about winning an argument that only you are having that you refuse to have a reasonable  discussion.


Quote
If the prices of medication were cut in half and we paid the same as Canadians pay.


There's reasons why drugs are more expensive in the US that have nothing to do with profit and greed.  Are you interested or would it be simpler for you to just blindly(and incorrectly, AGAIN) point the blame at the drug companies?

Offline texasmom

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2007, 12:48:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?

This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy.


Key term there is: "fail to take care of themselves"

Lesson: if you make poor choices, you suffer the consequences.  Get up, dust yourself off & make better choices.  What are we, babysitters to adults?

If someone screws up, let them suffer.  That will factor in to their decision making process the next time they're choosing between screwing up & doing right.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 01:09:05 PM by texasmom »
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Offline Tigeress

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2007, 12:52:31 PM »
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
I asked you a "Yes or no"  question which you have never answered. You are not saying the same thing over and over again. You are so worried about winning an argument that only you are having that you refuse to have a reasonable  discussion.


 

There's reasons why drugs are more expensive in the US that have nothing to do with profit and greed.  Are you interested or would it be simpler for you to just blindly(and incorrectly, AGAIN) point the blame at the drug companies?


As memory serves, Steve, the high cost of drugs here is tied to very expensive American drug company R&D.

I just grips me to pay more for the same thing here I have bought in other countries for a lot less. Seems like all individual Amercians are subsidizing medicine development for most of the world.

You are the HC professional though, so I look to you for some answers,  guidance, and insight.

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Offline crockett

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2007, 01:16:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
I asked you a "Yes or no"  question which you have never answered. You are not saying the same thing over and over again. You are so worried about winning an argument that only you are having that you refuse to have a reasonable  discussion.


 

There's reasons why drugs are more expensive in the US that have nothing to do with profit and greed.  Are you interested or would it be simpler for you to just blindly(and incorrectly, AGAIN) point the blame at the drug companies?


What is your important question? This?

Quote
so you expect Dr's to go to school for nearly a decade.. then not make a profit? You expect nurses to work for no profit?


Of course I don't expect them to work for free, but is money the only reason a doctor chooses his profession? I'd sure hope not.
"strafing"

Offline SteveBailey

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2007, 01:32:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
As memory serves, Steve, the high cost of drugs here is tied to very expensive American drug company R&D.

I just grips me to pay more for the same thing here I have bought in other countries for a lot less. Seems like all individual Amercians are subsidizing medicine development for most of the world.

You are the HC professional though, so I look to you for some answers,  guidance, and insight.

TIGERSS


  Here's more: In Canada, the drug companies cannot advertise to their drugs directly to the consumer, i.e TV and radio commercials. In the US, the drug companies spend over 3 billion a year on advertising. Guess  who pays for this? That's right, the average Joe.  Just like any other product you buy, advertising costs are built into the price of drugs.  

Another reason: The Canadian govt puts caps on how much drugs cost there.  That's a good thing  right?  WRONG! .. unless you are Canadian or buy there. The drug companies have to make a profit to stay in business so they absorb their losses in Canada and make up for it by raising prices elsewhere... like the US.

another: The exchange rate: while this has evened out recently, in recent past the Canadian dollar was only at 60 to 70% of the US dollar.

Another:  The costs of the FDA.  This could be construed as part of R&D. It is the FDA's job to "  take clear steps to try to make sure that those products are safe and effective, or accurately labeled, not misbranded, not adulterated"
 In Canada for instance, there is no entity like the FDA.

This is why the drug companies had such a fit over American buyers buying drugs online from Canada. It isn't greed, it's simple economics. They cannot afford to sell their products at Canadian costs worldwide...they'd be out of business. Interestingly enough, one of the biggest companies complaining of the practice was GlaxoSmithKline, which happens to be an English based company.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 01:37:02 PM by SteveBailey »

Offline Tigeress

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They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2007, 01:48:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Here's more: In Canada, the drug companies cannot advertise to their drugs directly to the consumer, i.e TV and radio commercials. In the US, the drug companies spend over 3 billion a year on advertising. Guess  who pays for this? That's right, the average Joe.  Just like any other product you buy, advertising costs are built into the price of drugs.  

Another reason: The Canadian govt puts caps on how much drugs cost there.  That's a good thing  right?  WRONG! .. unless you are Canadian or buy there. The drug companies have to make a profit to stay in business so they absorb their losses in Canada and make up for it by raising prices elsewhere... like the US.

another: The exchange rate: while this has evened out recently, in recent past the Canadian dollar was only at 60 to 70% of the US dollar.

Another:  The costs of the FDA.  This could be construed as part of R&D. It is the FDA's job to "  take clear steps to try to make sure that those products are safe and effective, or accurately labeled, not misbranded, not adulterated"
 In Canada for instance, there is no entity like the FDA.

This is why the drug companies had such a fit over American buyers buying drugs online from Canada. It isn't greed, it's simple economics. They cannot afford to sell their products at Canadian costs worldwide...they'd be out of business. Interestingly enough, one of the biggest companies complaining of the practice was GlaxoSmithKline, which happens to be an English based company.


mmm... makes sense.

And, why should Canada bother itself with a Canadian FDA since the US is doing it... it would be redundant, wouldn't it?

I always assumed the FDA was funded 100% by taxpayer dollars and not at all by the drug companies.

Yes, I would consider the cost of the FDA to be an R&D expense one way or the other.

TIGERESS