Are you good enough to tell when a player won't HO?

[Rino]

Originally posted by 68ROX
Good advice, yet....

In the last year, I assume EVERY SINGLE CON coming at me will attempt the HO.

And 95% of the time, I am right!

Today's latest "3K advantage LA7 HO Dweeb" victim:  AKSleepy

I'm considering a "Aces High Hall of Shame" website with names and films...

You'd be SHOCKED who the "Get In an Uber-Ride & HO Everything In Sight" crowd includes.



68ROX

Put me down..I don't feel unmanly if the guy is pointed at me when I fire.
If that makes you think less of me, i think I'll still be able to sleep at night.

[toonces3]

Interesting discussion.

I have taken the opinion that any con coming at me is gonna shoot in the MA.  I agree that 95% of the time it happens.  I don't really blame folks.  After all, the name of the game is to shoot down the bad guy, and if you're in his gunsight why not shoot?

But, there's a segment, at least it sure sounds like there's a segment on the boards here, that want to fight more than rack up kills.  What I'm trying to do is advertise to that guy that, 'Hey, I'm not gonna HO you, look, I'm giving a few degrees offset so you can see I'm not gonna do it.'  If you've seen someone nose on, and then maneuver intentionally to avoid a collision/HO, then you know the move I'm talking about.

What I can't decide is:
a.  The opponent recognizes what I'm doing- our planes are pretty small 1.0k out.
b.  The opponent cares what I'm doing- by maneuvering off-nose, I've given what could be stretched to a 'front-quarter shot'.  I put this in quotes because this is a very, very front quarter shot.  By definition, though, if I take my nose off of you we are not head on.  The difference is truly trivial though because the opponent should understand that I'm not going HO intentionally, right?

I don't HO for the most part for two reasons- because most of the time I enjoy dogfighting and I really, really suck at HO shots.  I lose them all the time.  

Some players I really like told me straight up they'll shoot anyone in their gunsight HO or not.  So, I'm not going to try to judge the ethics of the shot.

WRT the AvA last night, I got HO'd by a sampler platter of everything, including F4F's and SBDs, in fact, on one flight I merged with an F4f who HO'd me, I kept going straight and an SBD HO'd me before I'd even turned.  I understand what you mean about the .303's though.  That would make sense because it really was excessive last night IMO.  

This whole offset on the merge move is risky.  I had a Hurri 2c take my wing off at 400 yards in mid-war the other night.  We had both offset and then it seemed like he kicked the rudder just as we passed and hit my wing.  I never had a chance.  It does give the opponent an advantage.  

I don't really understand how someone HO'ing you necessarily puts them in a bad position.  I can't picture a scenario where, if his nose is on you but yours isn't on him, you can have angles on him.  I'm not the best dogfighter here, but it seems like anything other than a whisker's width merge gives angles to someone.

I'll take you up on the offer Dedalos, maybe you can explain it to me.

[Spatula]

If people are vulching a base and i can get up, ill HO every single one of the vulch-tards without fail in a hurri 2c or tiffie or 190A8. If i go down, thats ok, my trip back up again is much shorter than theirs. So i HO until i can no longer get up or they are all gone. Gotta fight fire with fire.

In a non vulch/base-defense situation, if i can see my opponent cant or will not take a front-quarter shot, then i almost certainly will. If i can tell there's no risk to me, ill take the front-quarter snapshot everytime. MA fights aren't fair. Never have been, never will be. Fairness is for the DA. If they look like they are going to take a shot, i will normally use that to try lead-turn em and avoid the shot at the same time.

Lets be clear on what a HO is too while we're here. Its where both aircraft are flying straight at each other firing. Anything other than that is not a HO. There are front-quarter snapshots, and then there are true HOs. Very different in my book. Most people think there's no difference - there is.

[clerick]

Originally posted by toonces3
I don't really understand how someone HO'ing you necessarily puts them in a bad position.  I can't picture a scenario where, if his nose is on you but yours isn't on him, you can have angles on him.  I'm not the best dogfighter here, but it seems like anything other than a whisker's width merge gives angles to someone.

When i'm confronted with a head on merge I'm usually going to try and get beneath the NME plane at the merge.  Most players in the MA will do what ever it takes to put their guns on you, and in his situation it includes pushing nose down hard, to try and get a low percentage snap shot, or try rolling over on you.  Either way i am in control, i have forced the enemy to respond to me.  Murdr and Schatzi(?) did a video that demonstrates this quite well.  

By pushing negative G's or rolling under they are sacrificing position at the merge or precious time.  In either case they have given up those things to me and if I'm on my game i can use them to my advantage.  It's all about who controls the fight and these players that will do anything to HO, either because they have no grasp of ACM or are incapable of getting on your 6, are easy targets.  I'll even go as far as to give them a front profile shot, usually slightly off my 12 o' clock.  From their POV it will be an easy HO, in my mind I'm in a shallow dive that will put me below them.  By the time i get close enough for them to realize this, they have to jink or push over to get the pipper on me.  By then it's too late, they have fallen for the trap and by the time they acquire me in their view i am already pulling up over them, claiming the high ground and the advantage.

[toonces3]

Interesting clerick.

I suppose I'm wasting my time.  The folks that are gonna HO are gonna do it regardless of what I do.  

The best move is to probably just do a smart merge, whether that calls for a HO or front front front quarter shot or whatever and just fight the fight.

It's stupid to expect folks in the MA to not take a shot if I give it to them.  However, I have had some beautiful fights when folks DON'T take the shot, but well, I guess that's it really.

Bustr, we had a fun fight tonight, until I spun myself into the ground.  Wasn't it more fun fighting post merge than either of us HO'ing each other right off the bat?  That's what I'm getting at, not some ethical discussion of what we should or shouldn't do.

I really try to avoid HO'ing someone if I know they're not going to HO me, but that's just the way I play the game.  I don't expect anyone else to do that and I'm not above taking a head on shot if I feel the situation warrants, or if I'm just in a bad mood.

Thanks for the inputs.

[nirvana]

Sometimes I go on the motto of "take any shot you get, there may not be another chance".

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by bustr
In the AvA right now allies have been HOing due some what to the perception that thier .303 are usless against cannons. The addition of the 6-.50cal F4F has made it easier to counter the axis 20mm in snap shots and 6shots. When we only had .30 cals aside from the P40's 2-50 on the hood, axis planes seemd to abosorb .30's like Paris Hilton wanting attention. If you didnt take a HO when it was available to damage the axis engines, good chance your allied beebee gunned burlap crate was about to die.

Seems the british discoverd this problem during the BoB with their .303's. I guess it's a case of technology dictating survival tactics.

But again none of you will state out right that you want everyone in all arenas at all times who merges with you to play by strict DA rules so all kills are from some angle off the opponents 6. Why don't you just say that rather than these long tirades about other players lack of skill and honor compaired to your own.............?

How often did our DA style rules and duels happen in WW2?<------ I would honestly like to know.

The better question would be how often did pilots deliberately go into any engagement with a HO shot.  

Most kills were by guys the dead plane never saw.  

I understand that cannon birds in particular in AH are going to HO on every pass.  I expect it.

Because there is no risk, since no one dies, it doesn't take any particular skill or 'courage' to do so in the game cause the worst that can happen is you lose your cartoon plane and get another.  Because of that, comparing a WW2 pilot's actions to here doesn't work.  They risked the HO and if they blew it they died for real.

As long as it works, the HO shots are going to continue to be taken by just about everyone because it's quicker, takes less effort and will get you your 'attaboys' faster.

Fought a guy tonite in my 38G.  He was in a Yak 9T.  We headed towards each other co-alt and he started firing 1.5K out.  I slid off to the left, went vertical and he lost sight of me apparently as I killed him from a dead six shot before he'd completed half a turn.  This happened again with the same guy.  When the HO missed, it was like he had no clue what to do.

I tried to talk to him on private and see if he'd talk about what happened, but got no response.  I assume he was new.

At the same time another guy is spouting on 200 that he'd been HO'd by a P51B and he was going to HO everyone from now on.

I thought P51B?  4 50s and you are mad at him for losing a wing going nose to nose with a B pony?

Final fight of the night was with a D9.  He too did the 1.5K out and firing bit.  I ducked him twice while he ran to the next sector before revving.  I was almost out of fuel and not going to get back to base.  On the third run in I kept the nose on and when he started firing, I fired back.  Killed him but ran into his wreckage

Personally I'm still lousy at getting out of the way in the big old 38.  But I worry more about the guys that don't HO then I do about the one's who do.

[Lusche]

Originally posted by Guppy35
At the same time another guy is spouting on 200 that he'd been HO'd by a P51B and he was going to HO everyone from now on.

That's just someone looking for an excuse to HO...

[Chubbie]

That was me and he pulled tons of negative g's, redded out, and gave me over 45 degrees of advantage had he not gotten lucky. I DID NOT HO, I was merging and he decided to go for broke and HO, this was after he ran when I climbed co alt. Like I said on 200, if people are gonna do that and get me 90% of the time, I'm just gonna HO back.

[bustr]

Here is a scenario of the worst kind for arguments sake to the AH elevated skill and minders of combat etiquet group.

What will all of the top uber play by the DA AvA rules kill anyone anwhere anytime sticks do if the following Idieot Savant 9-14 year old joins our game?

1. He is a natural at knowing the moves and sweet spot in any first shooter or person vs person style combat game 5 minutes after he first enters the game.

2. He enters the MA and owns anything moving but decides the HO is what floats his ego. Plus he ch200 to everyone he HO and kills 100% of the time that he owned them. Worse then SkyRock does X-1000.

3. He wont go DA with any of you, just hangs out in the MA and kills all of you and everyone else as he chooses.

4. Once all of you think you have figured out how to slip his first HO, he can out fly GOD just so he can set you up to be HO'd because it's his prefered form of kill.

5. Again he ch200 to you all that he owns you and the cartoon EGO's you ride on.

After all the HO is the only percentage shot that a non-entity skilless wonder might use to kill each of you with some predictable success. What would each of you do when this kid finally finds Aces High? I'm throwing this out there because so much effort has been expended on this BB over the years to talk nobodies out of using the HO against you.

Common play along with this what if. What would you do in the face of 1 in a 100million player like this?

[DoNKeY]

Originally posted by Chubbie
That was me and he pulled tons of negative g's, redded out, and gave me over 45 degrees of advantage had he not gotten lucky. I DID NOT HO, I was merging and he decided to go for broke and HO, this was after he ran when I climbed co alt. Like I said on 200, if people are gonna do that and get me 90% of the time, I'm just gonna HO back.

No offense, but it doesn't sound like a HO, but rather a high front quarter shot as you tried to lead turn him where he got lucky and connected.

Is that correct or am I just dumb??  

donkey

[Chubbie]

That's a HO, had I decided to HO also I'm 100% positive he would've done a more traditional HO. Front quarter shot in the first merge = HO in my book. If it isn't then I'm just gonna become a "front quarter shot" tard with the la7. I'll take the shot and if I miss I'll just keep going, turn around, and repeat. If that's not a HO then I dunno what it is.

[jab116]

Odds of winning a HO are 50/50, so I try to avoid them. But sometimes it's a do or die only option, or a reflex/snapshot kinda thing. A cold gun HO pass surprises me.

[Blue]

I don't Ho unless the other guy tried it first or heavily outnumbered (most times not even then).  The fun of a long drawn out fight no matter the outcome is what does it for me.  When the HO is involved and someone goes down from it, it robs you of the opportunity to learn your own strengths and weaknesses and develop them accordingly.  However as others have said, no matter how much we complain about it we will never stop others from doing as they please in this regard.  My only suggestion for a remedy would be to HTC,  why not make HO shots (some arc of degree to be argued at another time) less likely to hit or cause damage.  I believe AirWarrior did something like this, and threw out 50% of landed HO shots???

[Yeager]

The fun of a long drawn out fight no matter the outcome is what does it for me.
====
Couple of thoughts:

1)In my experience in AcesHigh Long drawn out fights are usually the result on both players being incapable of getting a kill.  I can count on one hand the number of engaged close in nerve racking flip flopping tossing turning fights Ive had that lasted more than just a few minutes.  Usually my target selected engagements are over in 5-10 seconds........  

2) The lethality of the guns in AcesHigh, coupled with the high percentage of heavily armed cannon birds, is so high that usually all you need to do is land a short burst on a target and its down.

3) mid 90s Warbirds seemed alot, ALOT better about generating far more intense and legnthy fights as the planes seemed to take more damage during the fight and the bullets didnt explode planes nearly as often as they do in AcesHigh, just my recollection....its been along while since I flew Warbirds, like 1999.

4) I love this game and HTC, but if HTC ever...and I mean EVER, added a protection bubble around the front of rides or added some other punitive measure to unrealistically negate any aspect of the ballistics impact, then I will sorrowfully conclude my 10+ years with Dale/Doug and crew.  Airwarrior is long gone and dead, we dont need to resurrect those things here now.