Antialisong

[Tigger29]

All in all, it's in the eyes of the beholder.

Take my wife ack for example.. she can't tell the difference between FM radio, and HD FM radio... heck she can barely distinguish VHS from DVD, or even Stereo vs Surround!

Some people are going to notice the difference more than others...

[Skuzzy]

RedGiant, I am not against anti-aliasing when it is properly used.  I get about 20 emails a day from people who complain about warps and stutters.  Many of them have to do with turning anti-alising up to high levels, then run with the high res pack and preload of textures.

if your video card has 4GB of video RAM, then you can get away with it without any issue at all.  I will not go into how many people in this very thread have complained about performance issues and still refuse to disable or adjust anti-aliasing settings.

The truth is, most people have no idea how to use it properly.  They think it is free and it is anything but free.  It can kill  performance in critical areas of the game.  Say when saddling up on a plane's 6 and then you get that stutter right when you have a firing solution.  Or when you want to play a  film back and it stutters, which kills the enjoyment of the film.

I will never advise anyone to potentially sacrifice gameplay for the sake of graphics.

Elusive?  Sit in my chair for a few days and deal with all these issues, then maybe you will understand why a blanket endorsement of anti-aliasing will not be forthcoming from me.  You want ludicrous?  That would be anyone making a general endorsement for anti-aliasing without understanding the potential performance issues involved.

When I see blanket endorsements for turning up the AA to the highest levels along with anisotropic filtering, then I have to say something, as it would be irresponsible to sit by and watch people do something that would potentially cause them gameplay issues.

And no matter what you think you know.  I know a good deal more about our game than you do.

[eagl]

Since skuzzy won't give a blanket endorsement, I will

No really, I think FSAA makes AH look better, but as skuzzy said it can really cause system performance issues if you turn it up too far.  That said, I think even reasonably fast mid-level video cards ought to be able to use at least 2x FSAA.  On my 6800GT (256 meg memory) I can run either 2x or 4xQ FSAA without any stuttering and while maintaining 40+ FPS, with screen resolution of 1280x1024 and the graphics sliders turned about 3/4 of the way up.  Plain 4X FSAA looks nicer I think but it drops framerates enough that I don't use it.

It's all a tradeoff.  hi-res textures are IMHO nicer than running higher FSAA.  Higher resolutions (up to the native resolution of your monitor if you're using an LCD) looks nicer than FSAA in my opinion.  And in my experience, never ever turn up any options that make your framerate drop below 40 when maneuvering around other planes near an airfield, or you'll get stuttering when you saddle up for shots.

For me, the "sweet spot" has been 2x FSAA because I get just enough of a dip in framerates with 4X or 4xQ that it can ruin the feel of the game.  But again that's with an nvidia 6800GT.  I suspect that if I got a nice 8800GT with 512 meg memory, I could turn that up to at least 4x and also use transparancy antialiasing, which ought to make things look nicer.

Oh yea, good FSAA can help reduce edge shimmering, which is a personal destroyer of game feel for me.  That's why when I'm fly9ing I turn down ground visual range...  I just don't care to see the shimmering treetops.  But FSAA seems to slightly reduce the shimmering and allegedly, transparancy antialiasing is supposed to help antialias more than old-style antialiasing alone.  But I haven't tried it so I don't know for sure.

When my MBA is done, I'll buy a new 8800GT to update my computer and do some testing online

[RedGiant]

Originally posted by eagl
Since skuzzy won't give a blanket endorsement, I will

No really, I think FSAA makes AH look better, but as skuzzy said it can really cause system performance issues if you turn it up too far.  That said, I think even reasonably fast mid-level video cards ought to be able to use at least 2x FSAA.  On my 6800GT (256 meg memory) I can run either 2x or 4xQ FSAA without any stuttering and while maintaining 40+ FPS, with screen resolution of 1280x1024 and the graphics sliders turned about 3/4 of the way up.  Plain 4X FSAA looks nicer I think but it drops framerates enough that I don't use it.

It's all a tradeoff.  hi-res textures are IMHO nicer than running higher FSAA.  Higher resolutions (up to the native resolution of your monitor if you're using an LCD) looks nicer than FSAA in my opinion.  And in my experience, never ever turn up any options that make your framerate drop below 40 when maneuvering around other planes near an airfield, or you'll get stuttering when you saddle up for shots.

For me, the "sweet spot" has been 2x FSAA because I get just enough of a dip in framerates with 4X or 4xQ that it can ruin the feel of the game.  But again that's with an nvidia 6800GT.  I suspect that if I got a nice 8800GT with 512 meg memory, I could turn that up to at least 4x and also use transparancy antialiasing, which ought to make things look nicer.

Oh yea, good FSAA can help reduce edge shimmering, which is a personal destroyer of game feel for me.  That's why when I'm fly9ing I turn down ground visual range...  I just don't care to see the shimmering treetops.  But FSAA seems to slightly reduce the shimmering and allegedly, transparancy antialiasing is supposed to help antialias more than old-style antialiasing alone.  But I haven't tried it so I don't know for sure.

When my MBA is done, I'll buy a new 8800GT to update my computer and do some testing online

[RedGiant]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
RedGiant, I am not against anti-aliasing when it is properly used.  I get about 20 emails a day from people who complain about warps and stutters.  Many of them have to do with turning anti-alising up to high levels, then run with the high res pack and preload of textures.

if your video card has 4GB of video RAM, then you can get away with it without any issue at all.  I will not go into how many people in this very thread have complained about performance issues and still refuse to disable or adjust anti-aliasing settings.

The truth is, most people have no idea how to use it properly.  They think it is free and it is anything but free.  It can kill  performance in critical areas of the game.  Say when saddling up on a plane's 6 and then you get that stutter right when you have a firing solution.  Or when you want to play a  film back and it stutters, which kills the enjoyment of the film.

I will never advise anyone to potentially sacrifice gameplay for the sake of graphics.

Elusive?  Sit in my chair for a few days and deal with all these issues, then maybe you will understand why a blanket endorsement of anti-aliasing will not be forthcoming from me.  You want ludicrous?  That would be anyone making a general endorsement for anti-aliasing without understanding the potential performance issues involved.

When I see blanket endorsements for turning up the AA to the highest levels along with anisotropic filtering, then I have to say something, as it would be irresponsible to sit by and watch people do something that would potentially cause them gameplay issues.

And no matter what you think you know.  I know a good deal more about our game than you do.

[SunKing]

Originally posted by RedGiant
Respectfully, I can see a HUGE difference between 4x and 16x at 1280X1024.  As well as 16x Anisotropic Filtering.  The textures inside the model look much better than if set to 4x.

I can see a huge difference too.

It's like going from



 


to





(notice the jagged wings in the 1st picture, it's worse in the actual game at default settings)

You can totally see a difference. If I can push my hardware and not loose performance in game, I'm going to. With AH2 my rig runs fine with everything maxed.

[Krusty]

sunking, my 2x FSAA looks better than your "4x FSAA"... I don't know what card/drivers you've got, but that's not representative of most cards I've used that support FSAA. I've had 3 cards over the past 6/7 years or so that allowed me to do FSAA and even 2x FSAA on a GeForce 256 DDR (32MB) looks better than what you posted in your first image. I know. I used it on a fe games back then. SLowed it down for sure, but looked way better.


Also, AH does not use aniso filtering. You can turn it on but the game won't use it. I think the elusive "placebo effect" is kicking in here.

P.S. Blurry JPEGs aren't best to show anti-aliasing on. Need higher quality JPEGs or BMPs.

[SunKing]

Originally posted by Krusty
sunking, my 2x FSAA looks better than your "4x FSAA"... I don't know what card/drivers you've got, but that's not representative of most cards I've used that support FSAA. I've had 3 cards over the past 6/7 years or so that allowed me to do FSAA and even 2x FSAA on a GeForce 256 DDR (32MB) looks better than what you posted in your first image. I know. I used it on a fe games back then. SLowed it down for sure, but looked way better.


Also, AH does not use aniso filtering. You can turn it on but the game won't use it. I think the elusive "placebo effect" is kicking in here.

P.S. Blurry JPEGs aren't best to show anti-aliasing on. Need higher quality JPEGs or BMPs.

Don't take those screenshots as the end all, they aren't mine. I was just trying to explain what I see and dislike without having AA and AS on.

The screenshot compression changes what it actually looks like anyway.

 But you get the idea what am I'm talking about.

Arguing over this is silly, we'll do what we want with our pc's regardless.

[Kermit de frog]

Originally posted by Krusty
...


Also, AH does not use aniso filtering. You can turn it on but the game won't use it. I think the elusive "placebo effect" is kicking in here.
...

I have my AF set to 16x Krusty.  I see a difference at extreme angles such as when in the tower looking out in the distance or if I'm on the ground and I'm looking around.

[RedGiant]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
RedGiant, I am not against anti-aliasing when it is properly used.  I get about 20 emails a day from people who complain about warps and stutters.  Many of them have to do with turning anti-alising up to high levels, then run with the high res pack and preload of textures.

if your video card has 4GB of video RAM, then you can get away with it without any issue at all.  I will not go into how many people in this very thread have complained about performance issues and still refuse to disable or adjust anti-aliasing settings.

The truth is, most people have no idea how to use it properly.  They think it is free and it is anything but free.  It can kill  performance in critical areas of the game.  Say when saddling up on a plane's 6 and then you get that stutter right when you have a firing solution.  Or when you want to play a  film back and it stutters, which kills the enjoyment of the film.

I will never advise anyone to potentially sacrifice gameplay for the sake of graphics.

Elusive?  Sit in my chair for a few days and deal with all these issues, then maybe you will understand why a blanket endorsement of anti-aliasing will not be forthcoming from me.  You want ludicrous?  That would be anyone making a general endorsement for anti-aliasing without understanding the potential performance issues involved.

When I see blanket endorsements for turning up the AA to the highest levels along with anisotropic filtering, then I have to say something, as it would be irresponsible to sit by and watch people do something that would potentially cause them gameplay issues.

And no matter what you think you know.  I know a good deal more about our game than you do.

Wow, keyboard sticking and having issues. sorry for double reply post.  
Got to keep kids with juice away from my equipment.

Anyhow, SKuzzy I completely respect ALL your knowledge.  You are an architect of this game and wouldn't be able to be so if you didn't have advanced knowledge of PC's, networking, video, etc.  
 <>

I was not making a blanket endorsement for FSAA.  Not sure if you meant that for me or not.  Just want to make that clear.  And, as you are, I'm an advocate of FSAA and all other enhancements WHEN THEY ARE APPROPRIATE to use.  Someone running the game on a Pentium 3 933mhz with a substandard graphics card and 128 megs of ram: no, I wouldn't tell them to run ANY graphical enhancements.  This is common sense.  

But saying that the quality of video card has nothing to do with FSAA performance, I just don't agree with, respectfully.  This is what I meant by elusive.  You have so far not explained (not that you are obliged to or anything) what you meant by "The quality of the video card has nothing to do with the resources needed to run anti-aliasing."  
I just don't agree with this statement.  Yes, the PC's other components have a part to play in that as well.  But for the sake of my broken forfinger, I won't go into all that.  (unless you really want me to)

Skuzzy, I have the utmost respect for you and all the guys at Hitech.  
And as far as what I think I know, I have ownership of a chain of successful PC shops in my area, have been working with PC's since hard drives would've taken up the better part of my shed out back, and live, eat, breath and sleep computers all day, all night, for the rest of my life.  I'll give you the fact that you know more about AH.  That's a given.  I'll even give you credit for being an expert with PC's.  You obviously are.  However, my knowledge is something I'm very confident in.  

Regards

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I have my AF set to 16x Krusty.  I see a difference at extreme angles such as when in the tower looking out in the distance or if I'm on the ground and I'm looking around.

Somebody at HTC can verify, but I believe Skuzzy has said aniso is not used in AH at all. (Maybe it was Pyro?)

[Skuzzy]

RedGiant, let's try this tact.

Take a Ferrari and a Prius.  Put one gallon of gas in them both.  They both go down the road, albeit the Ferrari is going to blow the Prius away,...until they both run out of gas.  At that point in time they are identical in performance due to resource starvation.

Video RAM is a resource on every video card.  When you exceed the amount of RAM on any video card, it hurts the performance of that card.  It matters not whether the video card is a 8800GT or a GF2.

Every PC is different.  Given the same hardware, anyone would be hard pressed to find any two that are the same due to all the various software elements people will invariably load on thier computer.  From my perspective, I have to take it a case at a time.  There is no way I would urge anyone to turn up AA to high levels.  There are far too many variables involved in a PC for anyone to assume "it will work for them, just because it works for me".

Anti-aliasing is a nice feature, when properly used.  It can also overwhelm the resources (i.e. video RAM) of any video card when it is not used correctly.  It is worth trying, but if stutters are an issue due to the video card thrashing, then turn it down, or off.


On Anisotopic filtering, we do not use it.  There are only a couple of instances where there would be any benefit.  For the most part, it is something not really noticable during normal game play.  When you are fighting someone else, it really does not offer any benefits.

It might be more useful when filming or taking screenshots than any other place.

[RedGiant]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
RedGiant, let's try this tact.

Take a Ferrari and a Prius.  Put one gallon of gas in them both.  They both go down the road, albeit the Ferrari is going to blow the Prius away,...until they both run out of gas.  At that point in time they are identical in performance due to resource starvation.

Video RAM is a resource on every video card.  When you exceed the amount of RAM on any video card, it hurts the performance of that card.  It matters not whether the video card is a 8800GT or a GF2.

Every PC is different.  Given the same hardware, anyone would be hard pressed to find any two that are the same due to all the various software elements people will invariably load on thier computer.  From my perspective, I have to take it a case at a time.  There is no way I would urge anyone to turn up AA to high levels.  There are far too many variables involved in a PC for anyone to assume "it will work for them, just because it works for me".

Anti-aliasing is a nice feature, when properly used.  It can also overwhelm the resources (i.e. video RAM) of any video card when it is not used correctly.  It is worth trying, but if stutters are an issue due to the video card thrashing, then turn it down, or off.


On Anisotopic filtering, we do not use it.  There are only a couple of instances where there would be any benefit.  For the most part, it is something not really noticable during normal game play.  When you are fighting someone else, it really does not offer any benefits.

It might be more useful when filming or taking screenshots than any other place.

Well, to add to your analogy, having a better video card is like topping off the tank in the Ferrari with every clock cycle.  Better cards have higher memory bandwidth and faster GPU's so they can replace those resources far quicker than older cards.  C'mon man  There are games out there with 1000X better graphics and physics than Aces High.  From what you're saying, those games should barely run or not run at all when you hold them to your criteria.  

Also, a video card uses system memory as well as it's own memory.  And with the speeds that memory is attaining these days as well as system bus speeds and processor cache sizes, cache thrashing is becoming less and less of an issue.  There is hardly any, if any at all, latency between the video card and system memory.  On newer systems within the last 2-3 years, mind you.
Not the systems that barely meet the hardware req's like the majority who play this game have.  

Let me ask you something else:
Why do you even offer a high-res pack and why even offer to have textures at 1024??  Straight from the tutorial:                        
"Generally speaking, you would need a very high end video card, such as an ATI X800Pro/XT or an NVidia 6800Ultra or better to be able to use 1024 textures effectively and only with anti-aliasing disabled as anti-aliasing can quadruple the amount of video ram needed for any given frame to be drawn."

You consider those very high-end cards???
Also, I run AH on my older system with a 6800UltraExtreme with 8xSAA at the High Quality setting and my card only has 256 megs of ram with 2 gigs of system ram and I have absolutely no hiccups whatsoever.  Seems like you guys are trying to scare people away from running the game at higher resolutions.  Why??  I have my own reasons why I think you guys are doing this which I won't get into.  But, it's a smart business move.  Gotta keep your customers!  Can't fault you for that.  

I also find this laughable "To keep all the textures in memory, either system or video card, currently requires more than 1GB of ram!"  

Who doesn't have a gig of ram?  And at the time you guys wrote this, one gig video cards didn't even exist.  So, WHY even include the options to run the game at such high texture resolutions or higher resolutions at all??

Even the most advanced games don't have req's like these.  Amusing.

[Krusty]

Whoa! Chill there, redgiant!


You do realize those requirements are probably from 2000/2001? You're taking a combatitive tone, but trust me, Skuzzy's not making stuff up.

It's over 1.5 GBs if you wish to load all textures into memory now. Every skin pack release increases this. That's on hi-res with skins enabled. Granted, it takes less if you lower the res and turn some things off. It's a warning about using the best quality visuals AND the hi-res pack at the same time.

Do you have in-game settings maxed? Are you running the hi-res pack at high resolution (above 1280x1024)? Do you preload all textures and all skins into memory? Try maxing out the GAME settings, not your card settings (which, fyi, are no controlled by the game and HTC doesn't have settings/options for). You will eventually see stutters and hitches, *especially* on a 256MB vid card.


There's no hidden agenda. It's just basic resources. Up until a year ago I didn't have more than 512MB RAM. Many folks don't have 1 GB. Many folks are still running Pentium 3s or low-end P4s. Heck we got folks running on laptops, trying to run on integrated vidcards, etc. There are a lot out there BEHIND the technology curve. We see this in the help and hardware forums quite often.

[Kermit de frog]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
...On Anisotopic filtering, we do not use it.  There are only a couple of instances where there would be any benefit.  For the most part, it is something not really noticable during normal game play.  When you are fighting someone else, it really does not offer any benefits.

It might be more useful when filming or taking screenshots than any other place.

I do like filming and taking screenshots, which is why I have AS to 16x.
I agree with you 100% on this topic Skuzzy!