Author Topic: How Hillary will pay for her universal healthcare plan (Read 3009 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #90 on:** February 06, 2008, 07:46:42 AM »

2bighorn said...

" Facts, Lazs, facts. Beats the hell out of your rhetorics any day.
The whole point is that health services are too expensive. Make them cheaper and we won't have to discuss universal health care, because everyone will be able to afford health insurance."

What does that mean? does it mean you are going to not allow law suits? does it mean you are going to limit money available to pharamcudicals to invest in research? put a price cap on procedures and cut the number of advanced medical procedures and or quadrupal the waiting period for em? Health insurance is affordable now... you can get insurance with a high deductable for as little as $80 a month.. By "affordable" do you mean not have to give up cable tv? What would you change?

You said.

"It means stop accommodating big corporations in a way which eliminates competition and free market."

meaningless without some examples. If that means giving walmart a tax break or break to build and save everyone in the town $2,000 a year (average savings at walmart per family over mom and pop) then you are wrong. walmart for instance also increases the tax revenue of a city.

You said, on "investing in people".

"Who's talking about handouts? Investing in people... Creating economy where cheap imports don't drive standard of living into basement. That is, that those who work can afford some kind of health insurance, even if they just clean restrooms or picking fruits. Stuff like that..."

more soundbites and gibberish. cheap imports allow poor and lower middle class to survive and have a few luxuries. Everyone can afford health insurance now.. even more so if the socialists didn't force us to take care of 12 million or so illegals and as many no income people.. take care of "families" that consist of nothing more than some nameless sperm donnor.. a 17 year old mom and 3 half wit born addicted kids.

we could get specific if you didn't use soundbites. You sound like osamabama.. free everything for everyone... the "government" and the "rich" pay for it.. the devil is in the detail.

lazs

2bighorn · « **Reply #91 on:** February 06, 2008, 11:36:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
does it mean you are going to not allow law suits?

Law suits are fine. Frivolous law suits aren't and they should be limited by what ever means.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
does it mean you are going to limit money available to pharamcudicals to invest in research?

LOL, The biggest expense item is not R&D but advertisement.
Beside that, most of R&D is still done by universities, national institutes of health and small independent biotech labs, all taxpayer financed.
Instead of being in public domain, thanks to Bayh-Dole Act, big pharma can buy exclusive rights on those patents. What's even more sad is that in last 20 years most of the new drugs are just 'me too' drugs.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
put a price cap on procedures and cut the number of advanced medical procedures and or quadrupal the waiting period for em?

Nope

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Health insurance is affordable now... you can get insurance with a high deductable for as little as $80 a month.. By "affordable" do you mean not have to give up cable tv? What would you change?

WTF? $80? Get real.
I pay almost $1000 per month for something I call 'acceptable' coverage,
and that's just slightly above the range of average premiums.
I wouldn't call that 'affordable'.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
meaningless without some examples.

"Big Ten" pharmaceuticals are very good example, with exclusive rights granted by USPTO and FDA, illegality of importing drugs by all but those same pharmaceuticals and taxpayer founded research...

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
If that means giving walmart a tax break or break to build and save everyone in the town $2,000 a year (average savings at walmart per family over mom and pop) then you are wrong. walmart for instance also increases the tax revenue of a city.

Don't start with Walmart, unless you wanna deal with reality and facts at the rate you'll hardly comprehend.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
more soundbites and gibberish. cheap imports allow poor and lower middle class to survive and have a few luxuries.

Luxuries? IN what a *ucked world are you living? Cheap Chinese imports are hardly a luxury by any definition.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Everyone can afford health insurance now

Sure.

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Originally posted by lazs2
and as many no income people..

Like children and elderly and disabled... Let just gas them. Problem solved

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
take care of "families" that consist of nothing more than some nameless sperm donnor.. a 17 year old mom and 3 half wit born addicted kids.

Well, I'm sorry your family turned out that way, but please, don't generalize.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
we could get specific if you didn't use soundbites. You sound like osamabama.. free everything for everyone... the "government" and the "rich" pay for it.. the devil is in the detail.

You obviously have trouble with facts. Where did I mention free? I've said fair and affordable. Big difference.

Saxman · « **Reply #92 on:** February 06, 2008, 12:56:19 PM »

I think any lawsuit over occurances that could have been prevented by exercising plain common sense should be automatically thrown out. If you order a cup of HOT coffee from a fast food joint and burn yourself when drinking it that's your OWN damn fault.

john9001 · « **Reply #93 on:** February 06, 2008, 01:57:49 PM »

the evil wal mart is selling drugs at a discount, what are they trying to do ,ruin our economy?

Clifra Jones · « **Reply #94 on:** February 06, 2008, 02:34:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Suave
Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990
A tragic consequence of people who haven't the wherewithal to be parents making babies.

Another Fact:
The War on Poverty took a crisis-level illegitimacy rate among blacks in the mid-1960s (22 percent) and tripled it to 69 percent. It transformed a negligible illegitimacy rate among whites (2 percent) to emergency proportions (22.5 percent) — higher than the black illegitimacy rate when Daniel Patrick Moynihan heralded the War on Poverty with his alarmist report on black families, "The Negro Family: The Case for National Action."

This is one of the many "Success Stories" of leftist programs.

2bighorn · « **Reply #95 on:** February 06, 2008, 03:02:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Clifra Jones
illegitimacy rate

Why and how illegitimacy relates to medical insurance?

midnight Target · « **Reply #96 on:** February 06, 2008, 03:34:59 PM »

It doesn't.

cobia38 · « **Reply #97 on:** February 06, 2008, 05:28:21 PM »

in florida we have no state or local income taxes, we are taxed acording to what we buy. witch means that all the elligal alians/and tourists that come here dont get a free ride. if the fed gov went to same system and did away with the LEACH I.R.S we would all be better off.

Hap · « **Reply #98 on:** February 06, 2008, 07:04:52 PM »

Looks like this thread has been suitably Skuzzified.

Tempers running hot?

Band-Aids only from here on out.

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #99 on:** February 06, 2008, 08:05:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Those of you who think the government placing price controls on medical care will work are either too young, or too stupid, or were too stoned to understand or remember how well price controls worked for gasoline under Carter.

Time to revisit your history and the reason for the high gas prices. And the price controls

"The 1979 (or second) oil crisis in the United States occurred in the wake of the Iranian Revolution. Amid massive protests, the Shah of Iran, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, fled his country in early 1979, allowing Ayatollah Khomeini to gain control. The protests shattered the Iranian oil sector. While the new regime resumed oil exports, it was inconsistent and at a lower volume, forcing prices to go up. Saudi Arabia and other OPEC nations, under the presidency of Dr. Mana Alotaiba increased production to offset the decline, and the overall loss in production was about 4 percent. [2] However, a widespread panic resulted, driving the price far higher than would be expected under normal circumstances. In the United States, the Carter administration instituted price controls.[3]

In 1980, following the Iraqi invasion of Iran, oil production in Iran nearly stopped, and Iraq's oil production was severely cut as well.

After 1980, oil prices began a six-year decline that culminated with a 46 percent price drop in 1986. This was due to reduced demand and over-production, and caused OPEC to lose its unity. Oil exporters such as Mexico, Nigeria, and Venezuela expanded. The US and Europe got more oil from Prudhoe Bay and the North Sea"

alskahawk · « **Reply #100 on:** February 06, 2008, 08:28:09 PM »

How will we pay the trillions for the Iraq excursion? I don't much care for the universal health care plan. More of my hard earned money going to the lazy and non deserving.

Asking where the money is coming from after ignoring Bush's spending is ridiculus. Remember. No elected official, no government program and no political party is the answer to your problems. Take care of your own business. Learn to handle your money. Act your wage. Then your health care will be taken care of.

By the time the Universal health care passes it will be so encumbered by government red tape and special interests that the taxpayers will pay two to three times what its worth. Much like the Iraq war. Be careful what you ask from your government. They can't see past the special interests.

I am not a Hillary fan nor a detractor. After Bush people are likely to elect anyone. And no matter who gets elected nothing will be done for the real problems.
Primaries should be held in stadiums or big pits in every state. Then all the citizens could pelt them with rotten fruit.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #101 on:** February 06, 2008, 08:30:58 PM »

The problem with the Carter price controls on gas wasn't the high prices, it was the fact that you couldn't BUY gas, or you had to wait in line forever to buy 1/3 of what you needed.

So, the government controls prices on drugs, and you get on the waiting list for your medication. Sounds GREAT!

bj229r · « **Reply #102 on:** February 06, 2008, 08:38:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nashwan
Most first world countries have some form of "nationalised" health system.

Most of them have growing budgets. The OECD (30 countries in Europe, North America, Japan, New Zealand and Australia) found that health spending rose from an average of 7% of GDP in 1990 to 8.4% of GDP in 2004. The US saw the largest rises, though, up from 12% in 1990 to 15.3% in 2004.

The US spends almost twice as much as a proportion of GDP as the OECD average, and far higher than any other member state. Switzerland is second, on 11.6%, Germany third with 10.9%.

One of the features of the US system is that you have nationalised care, just like other countries. In fact, it's one of the most expensive nationalised systems, only 2 OECD countries spend a higher proportion of GDP on their nationalised health systems than the US does. What's unique about the US is that, despite costing so much, the nationalised health system is only open to a small percentage of the population. Most people in the US have to not only pay for nationalised care through their taxes, they pay again for private care they can use.

I found a few examples

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#britain
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#canada
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#australia

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #103 on:** February 06, 2008, 09:00:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The problem with the Carter price controls on gas wasn't the high prices, it was the fact that you couldn't BUY gas, or you had to wait in line forever to buy 1/3 of what you needed.

So, the government controls prices on drugs, and you get on the waiting list for your medication. Sounds GREAT!

Ok I thought you were referring to the prices.

I remember that. Even/Odd days
If your licence plate ended in and even number you could only get gas on an even day
Example. Licence ended in 234. you could only get gas on the 2'nd,4th,5'th and so on
And vice verse if it ended in an odd number.
then yes there were the lines.

There were ways around itto some extent if you used some enginuity.
Myself. My tag ended in an odd number. but I had a friend whose ended in an even number. If it ever came about either of us needed gas.
We would takewhoevers car had the right number and a 5 Gallon gas can and fill it up and put it in who's ever car needed it.
Somoene else I know had a seperate set of plates to a different car and would swap the tags if he really needed gas.
He just had to make sure he drove real carefully so as not to give any reason to get pulled over till he got to a place where he could change out tags again.

On a more sinister note.
I knew someone else who would outright theive it.
He managed to rig up a small pool pump to his cars electrical system.
he would then back up to another car late at night and literally pump the gas from one car into his own.

I remember one time the older brother of a buddy of mine had a car he was going to have wreaked. but it had a full tank of gas and told me I could have it if I could get it out.

So we tried syphoning it. Took us a LONG time to get the syphon going good (by mouth) Each of us spit out and probably swallowed our fair share of gas. (BLEACH!) before we could get a steady flow that didnt cut off.

The intitial taste wasnt the worse of it though.
It was the constant burping the taste of gas for hours afterwards and the skin around our lips peeling from the chemical burns

Not to mention how high we got from beathing in the fumes.

john9001 · « **Reply #104 on:** February 06, 2008, 09:19:42 PM »

oil prices are dropping because the speculators think the possible US recession will reduce demand for gas in the US.