Ethanol Production causes harms the environment!

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by Mark Luper
That would depend a lot on the quantity of ethanol I would think. We run E10 here in the DFW metroplex.  That's 10% ethanol.

A 30% reduction of gas mileage would mean that a car that got 30 mpg would then suddenly only get 21 mpg.

My car is EPA rated at 29 mpg and I have gotten as much as 32 mpg for short stretches. This was done on E10 gas.

I actually don't beleive you would increase your gas consumption to 30% even on E85 which is 85% ethanol. I don't know what it would be and I would expect an increase in consumption since ethanol does not have as much energy as petroleum gasoline but I find it dificult to beleive it to be as much as 30%.

Mark

Ever since the institution of E85, my fuel mileage on my jeep dropped from 20-21 to 15-16.  But if I draft like crazy, I can get it up to 18 or 19.

[Sixpence]

I don't see why it has to be one fuel source for everyone. Competition is good

[Donzo]

Originally posted by Sixpence
I don't see why it has to be one fuel source for everyone. Competition is good

True.  

But when ethanol is subsidized by the gov it kinda knocks the whole competition thing out of the water.  

If left to competition alone, ethanol would die a quick death.

[Mr Hanky]

I track the fuel mileage on my truck religiously. I can see a 10% drop in mpg during the periods the city requires all stations use E10 fuel. Now, they passed a law that just went into effect this year that requires it year around. A 10% decrease in efficiency with a 10% additive. The end result is that the same ammount of gasoline is used, but I end up paying 10% more for it.

[Donzo]

Yet another article showing biofuels in not so desirable light:

Biofules deemed a greenhouse threat

[Angus]

Originally posted by Casca
Yes.  "...soil on large areas is unsuitable for many herbs because of exessive herbacide usage." as you put it sounds like boilerplate from the PANNA website.  There is no basis in fact for the statement.

What is PANNA?

Anyway, as I had understood of the herbicidal problem was that accumulated quantity of it in the soil would kill some practical species of herbs, notably food rape, which AFAIK gives a better bio-fuel yeald than corn. (On good land 1.500 litres/ha as well as 3 tonnes of high-protein food)
As for the cow farts, they fart less if they are not fed with corn, - i.e. no starch, just fructose, - that's what they are built for. The meat and milk will also taste better, - but economical outcome will drop.
Biogas can be extracted from dung, - it's better if it can be burned than letting it escape.
Anyway, farting ruminants have been around by the millions for a looooong time

[Ghosth]

I havn't seen a single farmer up here tear up trees, or plow under grasslands so he can raise corn. Hasn't worked that way in years. Marginal land is all tied up in Conservation reserve, govt pays farmers NOT to farm it. They should be paying farmers to raise biomass like switchgrass on that land.

However I have seen the state of North Dakota which never raised much corn turn into one of the bigger corn produceing states in a single year.

Corn was listed something like # 8 of crops produced before last year.
(I used to work for the USDA here, had access to all kinds of data)

Last year corn was # 3 and we produced millions of bushels.


You know what, you want to turn that into gas for my car, go ahead.

Every gallon we grow is one gallon some desert nomad is not hijacking us for.
Its a gallon that can't be held hostage, because we need it.

Is it ideal, heck no, far far from it. But, is it better than buying oil from the middle east? In my opinion, you betcha.

Besides, there is a very good chance all those ethanol plants can be converted to produce alcohol from biomass/switchgrass instead of grain.

When that day comes, your taking  grass that grows all summer, making O2 for the air. And then your turning into Alcohol that can be blended into fuel for your car.

And THAT will be a win win situation.

Ohhh and btw, all the corn, is whats known as a carbon sink. It spends 5 - 7 months sucking up carbon dioxide, and turning into O2 to breath. So grow more corn, the air just gets sweeter.

[Charge]

In Brazil they use to burn the sugarcane fields to make the harvesting easier, that alone causes quite much unnecessary pollution. Poor pay for the workers and too few of them and I guess the sugar barons are pretty much in the same position as any cocaine baron in S America collection huge profits at the cost of environment and labour.

-C+

[Angus]

Nice input Ghost

BTW,an enormous amopunt of CO2 emission is simply because of forests being burned down to get a fast access to (temporarily) fertile land for coffe and then pasture. CO2 and deforestation just to get a little cheaper coffee and beef.....what a trade. Forest barons there....

[Casca]

Originally posted by Angus
What is PANNA?

Anyway, as I had understood of the herbicidal problem was that accumulated quantity of it in the soil would kill some practical species of herbs, notably food rape, which AFAIK gives a better bio-fuel yeald than corn. (On good land 1.500 litres/ha as well as 3 tonnes of high-protein food)

Pesticide Action Network North America.  A group of earth muffins dedicated to the elimination of pesticides.

Pesticides don't just hang out in the soil and accumulate forever.  First, they have a half life.  They photodegrade (are degraded by sunlight) and biodegrade (degrade by interaction with soil compounds).  Seccond, they are translocated through the soil profile through precipitation or irrigation.  This is known as mobility.  Thus for a pesticide to have a permanent effect on crops it can't break down and it can't go anywhere.
 
Products that tend to be persistant, that is to say do not readily degrade, make regulators nervous and tend to be heavily restricted or outright banned.  An example of this class would be Triazines which can be used in a very limited way.  Another example of a persistant product (although not an herbicide) is DDT which has been banned in the U.S. since the 1973.

I am unaware of any cases in which herbicide accumulation has had any permanent effect beyond the next few growing seasons.  Even herbicides that are formulated for the express purpose of keeping things from growing for as long as possible (classified as soil sterilants. Example: Pramitol) don't really last much longer than 6 months to a year under normal conditions.

As far as Ethanol goes (so as not to hijack the thread) there is a lot of interest in Switchgrass.  The Brazilians have made Ethanol a success due to the fact that they can go burn down another ten thousand acres of rain forest whenever they need some fuel.  The main point to be understood though is that we can't convert enough acres currently used for food production into fuel production to have any meaningful effect on the energy problem.

[Angus]

I was referring to herbicide, and 6 months does not count as many seasons....
Anyway, a couple of seasons are an explanation enough....
AFAIK, a decent accumulated dose of all 3 (herbicide+pesticide+fungicide) can take some 9 years to water out.
Organic farming makes a demand of "clean" soil for at least 2 years.
So, in short, that could be the explanation? You don't want to drop out a couple of years in crops just to be able to grow a different crop....

[Casca]

Originally posted by Angus
I was referring to herbicide, and 6 months does not count as many seasons....
Anyway, a couple of seasons are an explanation enough....
AFAIK, a decent accumulated dose of all 3 (herbicide+pesticide+fungicide) can take some 9 years to water out.
Organic farming makes a demand of "clean" soil for at least 2 years.
So, in short, that could be the explanation? You don't want to drop out a couple of years in crops just to be able to grow a different crop....

That could be the case Angus.  An organic farmer would, of course, elect not to plant behind herbicides.  I spray organic acres every summer and the organic guy always comes out to inspect the airplane to make sure the spray system is neutralized.  The products they have to use generally cost about five times the amount of a similar product used on commerical corn but I suppose they make it up with the "organic" premium at market.

A minor correction: herbicides and fungicides are both pesticides.

[Angus]

Interesting! Well Fascinating!
I happen to be an organic farmer, - as well as a conventional one, (different slabs of land), so I am rather familiar with the odds and ends...untill it comes to pesticides, which, due to cool climate where I live, do not get used very much.
The torture of going organic is the couple of years of very low output, where there is a question whether you are bankrupt before having proper yeald again. At the end of the day, money is the boss....sad but true.
In our case the problem has to do with pH, weeds, and crops. However, if you manage it over "the hill", crops are o.k., weeds are something that takes quite some skill and work to tackle, and the pH will fix itself,- in my case it went from 5.4-5.6 ish to 6-6.2.
Now,to pesticide....I may have the wrong word? In my understanding the English word "Herbicide" goes for the weed campaign, "Fungicide" for the fungus campaign, and "Pesticide" for the insect campaign.
As a sidenote, - of interest for you perhaps, - where I live, we have practically no insect that damages potatoes or carrots, but turnips are a pain. We have no problems with fungus in barley or oats, but they can be a pain in potatoes. Weeds are not much of a problem, and can frequently be dealt with by mechanical means (notably in potato growing).
However, it can be a pain getting weeds out if you choose to go from "row growing" to flat-field, - and in those cases the popular stuff is called "harmony".
Anyway, nice meeting someone who is a pro in the business

[Casca]

Very interesting to meet an Icelandic grower.  It sounds like you have some unique problems to deal with.

In the part of the world I work in, Nebraska, we have a lot of insect and weed pressure.  Chemical herbicides are used to control many weeds that used to be controlled mechanically because it conserves sub soil moisture which is lost to cultivation and water can be a problem on the Plains.  How long does your growing season run there?

I spray a lot of fungicide in small grains but I'm sure the conditions are more conducive to pathogens in this part of the world.

I'm assuming English is a second language for you and if that is the case I'm mightily impressed.  As far as nomenclature goes a pesticide is anything that kills a pest.  Types of pesticides include; herbicide, plants; insecticide, insects; fungicide, fungus; nematicide, nematodes and so on.

Nice to meet you Angus.

[Gunslinger]

NOt to mention corn is the staple for most food production.....eggs milk meet ect.

Anyone that has to feed a family has noticed the increases in food costs.  With my dollar stretching less and the costs rising it's getting tougher to feed a family of four.