another campus shooting this week?

[trax1]

Originally posted by Yeager
Ive been carrying concealed since I was 21.  Thats 20+ years and I haven't even had to contemplate producing my sidearm in self defense, or any defense for that matter.

Thats great, and I hope you never do, and I support your right to have that legal side arm, the only thing I've said I dont think students should be coming into classrooms armed.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by trax1
Thats great, and I hope you never do, and I support your right to have that legal side arm, the only thing I've said I dont think students should be coming into classrooms armed.

I think the point thats been tried to be made was them having the option to do so.
Obviously its unlikely that all the students would carry.

On the other hand. theese "no gun zones." are even more then obviously useless as they prevent nothing but allowing those who might have been able to defend themselves from being shot by some nutcase to do so.

My old man used to have a saying.
"If the police cannot protect the people. then the people must be able to protect themselves."

The one thing the police CANT do. Is protect you.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Xargos
I think the only true fix for something like this is to make it illegal to mention the killers name in the press.  But that would be a First Amendment issue.

No it wouldn't, just like it's not a First Amendment issue not to name sexual crime victims in the press.  Newspapers and television news organizations can make the decision not to mention the name of the shooter if they choose to.


ack-ack

[moot]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
thats a great point. and one that i could surely tear apart with any wild and apparently conceited humanity cursing improvised ethic that even in my own head has its own counter argument.
 but why would i bother?

Hmm.. why bother posting?  If you're going to take the time to say you've got a reply, then type it out, don't just say you do.

 

if i share my most pesimistic thoughts in a somewhat related discusion that is a great freedom we all have and one i wholeheartedly enjoy taking advantage of...once. if i was to go on and persue the topic indefinitely i would become a fanatic.

Yeah no need to take it that far.  Just point out the inconsitency.
 

worse than that if i instanty convert i become a fake, or a sheep.
 Far worse than either would be that i try and break down your realistic argument and force you to agree with my realistic argument. to atempt to crush the greatness you see in these subjects would be a crime unfathomable by our human laws and justice.

Like I said just take it easy and concisely point out the logical flaw(s).

yes, like i said 'all the other real lifeforms'. human's are scared to live by nature's laws? of course.

No.. Nature's laws is (to keep this post brief) physics.  If something wasn't natural it wouldn't happen.

pathetic self centered spieces that negates the natural physical progresion embraced by practicaly every other lifeform on the planet.

Anthropomorphism...  

clearly when the first 'intelligent' physical weakling rolled some rocks off a cliff onto a pack of physicaly dominant speceimens just because they didnt give him as much meat.... it was one small self centered step for man, one giant devolutionary leap for mankind.

and dude...that was a really long time ago.

What's the connection here?

[SIG220]

Originally posted by myelo
Yes they were. That's why he killed them first.

In fact, the killer took the .40 caliber Smith and Wesson pistol that the first officer had, and used it during the rest of his murder spree in the city council chambers.

He caught both officers off-guard, and they never had a chance to draw their weapons.   Both thought he was just up to his usual protesting antics, and not any danger.  

Their protective bullet-proof vests were also of no help, as he shot each officer in the head at close range with single shot from his own .44 Magnum revolver.

In fact, he targeted the heads of everyone he shot, which helps to explain why so few were wounded, and instead died.   How the Mayor is still alive after being hit twice in the face with the .40 S&W is sort of a miracle.   The last report on him was that he could briefly open his eyes, and squeeze the hand of a person at his bedside.

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Airscrew
so if someone died at a gun range due to an accident, then that doesnt count...

Most of these are now suicides, where a person goes to a shooting range, rents a gun, and then blows their brains out.   They only came to the shooting range to kill them self, so it does not count.

Actual accidents at shooting ranges are now extremely rare in the USA.

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Guns are ALREADY in the hands of students.  Many college students have CCW permits and DO carry their guns with them.  

Except for where they are not allowed to, one of which is a college campus.  

These people who you will never know walk around day in and day out ready to protect you, me and anyone else.  Yet somehow something magical happens to them the moment they step on a college campus?

Here at the University of Oregon, any student with a CCW permit that is caught carrying a gun on campus is immediately expelled from the school, with no exceptions.

Even non-students with CCW permits are banned from carrying on campus.   At the football games, folks are checked for alcohol and weapons when they enter.

No such security is done at the basketball games, though, and I have carried a pistol to a few of the Oregon Ducks basketball games in the past.  But if my gun had been detected, I would have been immediately kicked off campus.  Since I never broke any actual law, I could not have been charged with any crime.

There have been a few rapists that have prowled the campus in recent years, looking for victims.   But the University would never change their rule during these times of crisis, even when several co-eds protested it as being unfair to women.

In Eugene, OR there is a man currently on the loose who has twice tried to kidnap young girls coming home from elementary school in the past two months.   A man matching the same description broke into a home in the middle of the night this past week and was in the bedroom of a young girl touching her, when her mother entered the room and screamed real loud.   He unfortunately escaped back out the window he came through.

He is still at large right now.    

SIG 220

[Elfie]

Originally posted by trax1
Yes but the question is, whats rarer, school shootings were a person with a gun would be in a place to do good, or an accident from a person with a CCW, I'd have to think that it would be the school shooting situation would be the rarer event.  So if theres a bigger chance of harm from an accident with a CCW in a school, then wheres the benefit?

You're assuming accidents are going to be more common than the school shootings, all we have to go on is statistics from the past. I'm going to let you do the research on firearms accidents involving CCW permit holders. Frankly, I think you are reaching on this point.

If a CCW permit holder is in a position anytime to stop a lunatics murdering spree it's worth it. If CCW is allowed at schools/college campus's and it slows down the rate at which school shootings happen by even 1% it's worth it in lives saved.

Here's some info I found with a quick google search.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)

CCW permit holders are a not an issue when it comes to accidents and commiting crimes.

The issue here is how do we protect our kids from these lunatics. I and several others have brought up removing the gun free zones from schools so that CCW holders can help out. That is a viable solution as shown in several of the links I provided in a previous post.

You have no solution or suggestion to help protect our kids. Doing something is better than doing nothing at all or just giving up and letting the lunatics have their way in our schools.

[cpxxx]

It is pure fantasy to think allowing students to carry guns on campus would make the problem of copycat killers go away. Suppose you are sitting in class with your gun hidden away. In comes a killer and opens fire. Do you cooly draw your gun, place a couple of well aimed rounds between the killer's eyes and then graciously accept the plaudits of the other students. In your day dreams maybe.

The reality is probably quite different, you would be taken by surprise. You fumble for your gun, while diving for cover.  The killer, with adrenalin flowing would be a lot quicker than you. Special forces and SWAT teams train constantly for that type of scenario, you on the other hand do not. At best you might get off a couple of unaimed shots in the vague general direction of the killer.

Perhaps you hear the shooting, draw your gun and run towards the sound. But now you are just another gunman wandering the corridors and grounds of the college. Other students draw their guns. How do you know which is the killer? How do they know you are not the shooter. How does campus security, the cops and other students know that you're there to help not kill?

A good example of how having a gun doesn't help is the Chai Vang incident. He shot eight hunters, killing six, all of whom were presumably armed.  You would have thought at least one might have got him.

But the real question to ask yourself is this. What kind of society is it, that many people feel the need to carry weapons to protect themselves?

[MiloMorai]

Yes cpxxx, laz and some others need to read your post.

[loser]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's either Coincidence, Causation, or Correlation that NO massacres happen in areas with high concentration of weapons, but all the massacres that do happen occur in places with minimal concentration of weapons.


So choose.


Is this Coincidence, Causation or Correlation?

Barbarossa.

That was kind of my point originally.

Will bad things always happen? Yes. Will bad things always happen to unarmed people?  Yes. Will bad things happen to armed people? Yes. But maybe on whatever grand scale you want to think of it..One less person will be hurt.

[moot]

Originally posted by cpxxx
You see death and know it's you next if you don't put the gunner down.  You obviously don't draw his attention and with the same discipline you trained for when you got such a lethal weapon, you simply unload into the gunner as soon as a clear shot presents itself.

Better him than you, and definitely better him than one or more dozen dead.  You only go into any sort of shock after the fact.. On the spur of the moment you are more angry than anything else, that someone would take the rest of your life away from you before your time and without your consent.

T,FTFY...  Guns in the classroom?  What's the difference with anywhere else?  If guns are allowed, classrooms should be no exception, especialy if classrooms get gunmen's attention and there's no security filter of any sort.

And cpxxx, you don't propose any substitute for the 2nd amendment.  Without one, you can't reasonably disarm people in the US.

[ZetaNine]

Originally posted by Charon
They do it for the infamy. A product of our celebrity culture. Within hours they are on every cable news channel and Web sites around the world, including this one.  Before the mass media age they just ate the barrel alone in their bedroom.

Charon

RACK HIM

This guy gets it!!!

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by moot
 
What's the connection here? [/B]

 the first time we used our brains to destroy on a stronger, dumber human, was also the first public murder by an underdog on the physicaly superiour.

that madness and jealousy is the same as what urges a modern day 'underdog' to take a gun to a public place.

we evolved to kill each other, no other animal resorts to killing its own spieces as quickly.

[john9001]

Originally posted by cpxxx
The reality is probably quite different, you would be taken by surprise. You fumble for your gun, while diving for cover.  The killer, with adrenalin flowing would be a lot quicker than you. Special forces and SWAT teams train constantly for that type of scenario, you on the other hand do not. At best you might get off a couple of unaimed shots in the vague general direction of the killer.
 

and this happened to you when?