another campus shooting this week?

[myelo]

Originally posted by SIG220
In fact, the killer took the .40 caliber Smith and Wesson pistol that the first officer had, and used it during the rest of his murder spree in the city council chambers.

He caught both officers off-guard, and they never had a chance to draw their weapons.   Both thought he was just up to his usual protesting antics, and not any danger.  

2 law enforcement officers, armed, trained and on duty presumably for this very type of situation were caught situationally unaware. But a college student sitting in a classroom half asleep would obviously fare much better.

[lazs2]

trax.. again... you have no proof that allowing 21 year old CCW holders to carry would cause any problems whatsoever and we have plenty of proof to the contrary.

Do you think CCW holders go insane from the school fumes?   Fumes that exist no where else?   fortunately the fumes do no go out to the parking lot because that is where many civilians have had to run to get their guns and stop the shootings.

Malls, offices.. schools.. that is where shootings take place 99% of the time.. why?

Some has to do, as you say.. with the concentration of people there who are percieved to be the irritant to the shooter but..   not malls say..

They do have one thing in common.. limited entrance and egress and confined space.. and...  unarmed sheeple.   that is the real thing.. the guys doing the shooting want to have a bottleneck and limited entrance..  they want to kill as many as possible.

An indoor range would work for that save..  they would get shot.. One I know of did try and did get shot.. instantly.  No fame for him.. you have never heard of him I bet.

Nope...  if the shooters knew that there was a big chance that they would be killed like a stupid little geek instead of slaughtering dozens of sheeple in the dark avenger role... well..  do they want to be talked about in awe on CNN or just be another laughing stock "dumb crook" story?   You tell me.

There is no downside to getting the same kind of protection at schools as you have on the street every day.

I don't believe you are thinking this through very clearly or logically..

lazs

[lazs2]

trax.. simple logic would shoot down (pun intended) your theory... besides being based on nothing but a "feeling"..

Where is there a high concentration of young men with raging hormones who are under a lot of stress and the humiliation and anger is sky high?

Why..  military bases..  lots of guys armed to the teeth and half crazed on hormones and anger.    By your theory of the only reason the dark avengers shoot at schools and offices (forget malls) by your reasoning.. the irritant is their.. the cause of the irritation..  military bases and stations and even war zones would seem to bear out the facts as I have laid them out and not the "feelings" as you have laid yours out.

lazs

[lazs2]

and.. for those of you who think it would be some sort of quickdraw situation...

this is not what is being proposed.  your own examples kill your arguement.

the hunters.. they were armed.. they were obviously armed.    the shooter caught them off guard because he targeted them.   Same for the policeman in the council chambers.  

The obvious threat was taken out.. use your heads.. if one in ten people.. students, mall goers.. office workers... is armed but concealed..  who do you shoot?  they are all running and finding cover.  

Use your head and think.   In the council chamber.. if one of the people..  or six.. had been armed.. they were all hiding behind chairs and such.. the shooter ignored em.. he walked by them.

Who would get the drop on who?   Read any incident of a shooting like that... lubby resteraunt... any school shooting.. the mall shootings..  

That is why I favor concealed carry instead of open carry..  

As too.. what kind of a society is it or.. what kind do I want to live in where I have to go armed?

every kind.   there is always the chance someone will try to do something or take something from you by force.   No assaults or rapes or murders in your country?

What kind of country do we live in that you have to wear a seatbelt?  what kind of barbarians do you think are on the highway?

People are complex and will go feral.. you make that stop and we can talk.

You live in your fantasy land where you can make people safe by disarming the good guys and I will live in mine where I think I am better off armed when the bad guy shows up.

Mine has worked for me in real world..  has yours?

lazs

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by cpxxx
A good example of how having a gun doesn't help is the Chai Vang incident. He shot eight hunters, killing six, all of whom were presumably armed.  

No, it's a bad example. Only one of the victims was armed.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by cpxxx

A good example of how having a gun doesn't help is the Chai Vang incident. He shot eight hunters, killing six, all of whom were presumably armed.  You would have thought at least one might have got him.

Originally posted by hubsonfire
No, it's a bad example. Only one of the victims was armed.

Exactly, hubsonfire.  

Facts can really mess up an opinion.  

Another thing to note on the Chai Vang incident; 4 of the 6 killed were shot in the back as they fled.  I would imagine that had they all had guns at least one would have returned fire and taken out the threat.





The only thing that I can think of that even remotely comes close to being a "good example of how having a gun doesn't help" would be when confronted by someone like the 2 nut jobs in Calif. a few years back who were in full body armor and "armed to the teeth" while robbing a bank.

[mg1942]

Ok... this week is just ridiculous!

http://www.lvrj.com/news/15698052.html

That's just 1 of 2 shootings that happened in my town yesterday.

[trax1]

As for what Lazs and other have said about having students armed in the classroom as being a deterrent to school shooters are going on the fact that you think enough students would want to carry a CCW into class, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a majority of student willing to carry a CCW into a classroom on the off chance that it would come in handy on that very rare chance that you'd be in the right place at the right time to do any good.

[trax1]

Originally posted by Elfie
* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

So what happen more there, more things going wrong with a CCW in Florida or school shootings?

[Elfie]

It is pure fantasy to think allowing students to carry guns on campus would make the problem of copycat killers go away.

No one is saying that. We are saying we believe that by removing the gun free zone tags on our schools and campus's and allowing CCW permit holders to carry that the problem will be relieved at least somewhat. The problem could be relieved to a very significant degree based on crime statistics from states that allow CCW.

You criticize our proposal without offering a proposal of your own.

I'll say it again, doing something is better than doing nothing at all or just giving up and letting the lunatics have their way in our schools.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by trax1
So what happen more there, more things going wrong with a CCW in Florida or school shootings?

We don't know what those crimes were or even if their concealed carry weapon was involved. Without that knowledge it is impossible to make judgements. The crimes don't need to involve the weapon in order for the permit to be revoked.

[trax1]

Originally posted by Elfie
I'll say it again, doing something is better than doing nothing at all or just giving up and letting the lunatics have their way in our schools.

How about turning schools into very tightly controlled environments, we put up a fence with guards at all entrances, metal detectors that everyone has to pass through to get in, allow a security force on campus to be armed, I think that would help out more then allowing armed students into the classroom.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by trax1
As for what Lazs and other have said about having students armed in the classroom as being a deterrent to school shooters are going on the fact that you think enough students would want to carry a CCW into class, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a majority of student willing to carry a CCW into a classroom on the off chance that it would come in handy on that very rare chance that you'd be in the right place at the right time to do any good.

CCW is a deterrent simply because would be criminals don't know who is and who isn't armed. How many actually carry is irrelevant to the deterrent aspect of CCW.

Lets use Florida as an example again, millions live in the state of Florida yet only a few hundred thousand have chosen to carry concealed and the violent crime rate showed a significant drop.

Initially, Florida didn't allow non-residents to carry and criminals started targetting tourists. Florida interviewed convicted felons to find out why this was happening. The universal answer from the felons was.....we know the tourists aren't armed, the law doesn't allow them to be armed. Florida promptly changed their CCW law to acknowledge permits from other states and tourists stopped being targetted to the degree that they had been. Why? Again, because criminals didn't know which ones were armed and which ones weren't.

Also, drop the students carrying argument. In elementary, middle and high schools students aren't even old enough to carry. In college the majority aren't old enough to get a permit. Most CCW holders would be faculty on college campus's and all would be in other schools. We're talking about adults carrying here, not kids.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by trax1
How about turning schools into very tightly controlled environments, we put up a fence with guards at all entrances, metal detectors that everyone has to pass through to get in, allow a security force on campus to be armed, I think that would help out more then allowing armed students into the classroom.

You want to turn all our schools into a prison-like environment? Ok, that is a possible solution. Who is going to pay for this?

Armed students? Read my post above.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by Elfie
You want to turn all our schools into a prison-like environment? Ok, that is a possible solution. Who is going to pay for this?

Armed students? Read my post above.

Actually,some inner city schools are run like that...metal detectors,  security people, etc.