Aces High II, last of a dying breed?

[republic]

I can remember when I was a kid, I'd go into radio shack and see all the old Tandys and whatnot lined up running a looping demo of some incredible looking flight sim.  When I got my first computer, I spent my time playing Aces of the Pacific, Aces Over Europe, and Aces of the Deep (not a flight sim, but another dying breed of sim).

Later I moved on to the Janes flight sims.  Somewhat goofy flight models, but still very fun games.  Then the flight sim genre began to thin out.  Sure there was the F/A 18 Hornet games, the Flanker games and the neverending IL2 series but...somewhere along the way the flight sim turned from a simulation experience, to a sandbox.

LOMAC and IL2, while excellent simulation experiences, would have been laughed at during the flight sim heyday.  Remember that Harrier combo flightsim/strategy?  Now that was revolutionary...  I read somewhere that they were going to remake it.  No doubt with super speed powerups and Godmode...

Aces High is the last hope for flight simmers.  In a genre that is dying, AH is thankfully, still providing a simulation with fun.  I'd rather play AH than any current sim.  Sure, my wheels are octagons, and I swear the 4FU in Aces of the Pacific was more detailed than our C-Hog but...I accept those things because without the lighthearted graphics not everyone would be able to play AH.

I'd rather not have photo realistic visuals if it meant that I'd only be playing with overindulged teenagers (The only ones who seem to be able to afford bleeding edge hardware.)  In AH you get a great variety of opponents.  Real veterans, real pilots, older fans of the genre, and the younger folk.

I can only hope that one day PC gaming will come to the realization that there are some niches of gamers that cannot be satiated with a first person shooter...  Some of us do not want the ability to fly with a mouse or a gamepad.  Some of us crazies will actually spend 100+ in joystick hardware just to relive history.

Judging by the new faces in AH, maybe we'll see a comeback.

[toonces3]

Hi Republic.

Interesting post, but I must respectfully disagree with you.

I'm a flight simmer since I was 14 years old, 1985, starting with the old SubLogic 'Flight Simulator' for my Atari 1200XL.  I even bought it with my own money, $50, which is about what a sim costs today.  I too grew up playing Aces Over the Pacific, Falcon 3.0, all the Janes iterations through F/A 18, etc.

AH2 is a FUN game, but the savior of the genre?  I think not.

I think we all have a tendency to look at some of those old sims through the glasses of nostalgia.  Aces Pacific was a fun game for its time, but let's not go crazy and start touting it as the flight model to be held up as the grail, nor should we get carried away with the fun factor it was.  I mean, yes it was fun, but if you booted it up today I wonder if it would still seem as fun.  

The flight sim genre is definately not in its heyday anymore.  I agree (I think) with your premise that part of its demise is the generation of gamers that demands instant gratification or the quake-like twitch fest of FPS/RTS gaming.  I mean, heck, I enjoy COD4 online too, but I can only take it for about an hour at a time.  It's fun, but it's not a meal, you know?

[.rant on]  Where I think the genre has truly failed is capitalizing on the existing technology to make a truly persistent 'electronic battlefield' within the framework of a study sim fidelity.  WW2OL is probably close, although I haven't ever played it, and from what I understand the FMs suck in that game so it doesn't really qualify.  AH2's AvA arena is making a stab at it with the whole 'war' thing, but even there we're talking about a very small segment of the player base you need to make that really worthwhile.  What I'm talking about is a truly epic campaign engine with the gamut of vehicles, planes and infantry, with planes that have enough fidelity to be 'fun' without sacrificing too much realism.  AH2 provides the framework for that.

Think Der Grosse Schlag, but available everyday instead of once a year.

But, really, AH2 is alot like quake with wings.  It is fun, and I enjoy the game, but lets look at it for what it is- the tactical side of fighting planes with enough realism to be fun but not a chore, but it's a sandbox.  The strategic side of the game sucks.  Ultimately it's up, rinse and repeat for no real reason other than the fight.  For me, anyway, there's no real objective than to go up and shoot something down for the sake of shooting something down, and if I'm lucky I'm not fighting another Spitfire with my Spitfire.

Is this the savior of the genre?  No.  

Having said that, the genre isn't as dead as you think it is.  There are very active modding communities out there making some great additions to decent-to-excellent simulators.  When I'm not quaking in AH2, I love to up a F-15E (with an excellent, accurate downloaded payware cockpit) and go on strike missions in Falcon 4.0, probably the best flight sim ever made, and certainly the best dynamic campaign engine.  There are folks building excellent dynamic campaign generators and scripted single mission campaigns for IL-2 that kick sand on any 'immersion' I'm going to get out of AH2.  

Perhaps they aren't cranking them out like they used to, but alot can be done with what is out there.

[.rant off]

I think Combat Tour is likely to be the evolution of the genre, and HTC is a genius for being the first to go in this direction.  I really think it could be a goldmine of opportunity.  But how many people are really looking to invest time and effort in their flight sim experience?

Ok, enough for one post.  I hope you felt like having a discussion!

[Masherbrum]

I started with Wings of Fury (Broderbund) on an Apple IIe, back in 1987.   I've always been a WWII buff anyways.    My wife wants me to either "donate" or "get rid of" about 200+ books in our basement.    

I guard "my stash" like the Black Knight.

[evenhaim]

i disagree toonces i think republic is right, and that ah2 will be the sole addiction of many gamers for years to come.

[toonces3]

Well, luckily I have many hobbies so I won't be too disappointed when the genre dies...except for AH2 of course.

[Gianlupo]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
My wife wants me to either "donate" or "get rid of" about 200+ books in our basement.

Why don't you make wife happy? Italy's not that far away, you know......

[Fulmar]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
I guard "my stash" like the Black Knight.

Fight on good sir...there are many of us who guard our own stashes.

[FiLtH]

You can't look at an old game that once was cutting edge, and fun at the time, and today say "Eh". Those were great games at the time.

[FrodeMk3]

I think the key to this, was in the title of the thread, Republic.

For people who grew up playing Flight sims, taking the time and effort to learn all of this, going through all the technical data that just seems' to go hand in hand with any simulator, you discover that the simmer is someone who is willing to work for his fun. He (or She) would be the kind of Hot rodder from the old days. Where His/Her car was fast because THEY damn well got under the hood, and swapped the cam, carb, intake manifold, Stock cast-iron exhaust manifolds' for Steel-tube header pipes, etc.

Today's GAMER (in bold, not to be confused with 'simmer) Is like the kids' you see today-steal single-mommy's credit card, and just drop their rice rocket off at the guy who's rumored to be the hot "tuner" in town. Then pick it up when it's done.(or should I say pimped?)

The whole point being, We are a dying breed. Just like the old rods' at the drive-ins' have given way to kids' wearing their ball-caps on sideways, and driving little import cars. FPS's are huge now. Getting a new flight sim on the market today would be a herculean task, at best.

[Gixer]

PC flight sims are a dying breed and have been for a while. Why would a software house publish a flight sim when for a fraction of the development time they can make a FPS (which are usually designed for console use) and rake in millions of sales. PC gaming is now dominated by WoW and Sims, most other big game titles are multi platform designs and cloned across for PC use.

AH2 is fun on the side and is very much just air quake, it's always held a very niche market and is far from being the saviour of PC flight sims. Just waiting to see when Microsoft pull the plug on Flight Simulator, that will spell  the end of my involvement with PC flight sims.


...-Gixer

[republic]

Originally posted by toonces3

Having said that, the genre isn't as dead as you think it is.  There are very active modding communities out there making some great additions to decent-to-excellent simulators.  When I'm not quaking in AH2, I love to up a F-15E (with an excellent, accurate downloaded payware cockpit) and go on strike missions in Falcon 4.0, probably the best flight sim ever made, and certainly the best dynamic campaign engine.  There are folks building excellent dynamic campaign generators and scripted single mission campaigns for IL-2 that kick sand on any 'immersion' I'm going to get out of AH2.  

Toonces would you mind to PM me some links to some sites with some of those dynamic campaigns?  I haven't found anything nearly that good for IL2.  Also sounds like I need to give Falcon 4.0 another shot, had no idea there was the ability to fly other aircraft.  After LOMAC's "campaign" I had all but given up on modern aircraft sims.

Originally posted by toonces3
I hope you felt like having a discussion!

Actually I do  want to have a good discussion lol  We hardcore simmers need to stick together, our developers are quickly being gobbled up by the likes of the EA/Ubisoft machines..  SSI is no more, Microprose, Dynamix...all gone.

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Today's GAMER (in bold, not to be confused with 'simmer) Is like the kids' you see today-steal single-mommy's credit card, and just drop their rice rocket off at the guy who's rumored to be the hot "tuner" in town. Then pick it up when it's done.(or should I say pimped?)

I agree.  The definition of a good flight sim for today's generation is Ace Combat 6 for the xbox.  The joystick is all but dead.  One of my favorite games Klingon Academy (Ya I'm a geek) was an incredible game that tanked because it relied on the joystick for input.  And that was...like 10 years ago lol.  Microsoft Flight Sim and X-Plane eek out updates every year or so but...those are often used more for almost "educational" purposes than real entertainment.

Originally posted by FiLtH
You can't look at an old game that once was cutting edge, and fun at the time, and today say "Eh". Those were great games at the time

I agree.  Of course Aces of the Pacific etc. had rudimentary flight models by today's standards...a good reason for that is that the CPU's of the time are less powerful than even your cheapest cellphone CPU.

I ran Aces of the Pacific on a 486/SX 33Mhz with 4MB of ram with a cirrus logic PCI video card with 1MB of video memory at 320x240 resolution.  I run Aces High II with a Core 2 Quad running at 3000MHz with 4GB of ram with an ATI 3870 with 512MB of video memory at 1280x1024 resolution.  For the time, AotP was amazing.  (I can remember thinking how awesome the torpedo trails looked, and how detailed the Lexington class carriers looked..)

[Entr0py]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
I started with Wings of Fury (Broderbund) on an Apple IIe, back in 1987.   I've always been a WWII buff anyways.    My wife wants me to either "donate" or "get rid of" about 200+ books in our basement.    

I guard "my stash" like the Black Knight.

If she gets the best of you make us here your 1st call.

[BnZ]

Huh...it's AMAZING to me to read that people are giving up flight sims. I'm relatively young (28), and, after having a nintendo when I was about 10, lost interest in video/computer games entirely. I played original "Doom" a little, and have played "Medal of Honor" on other people's consoles. But nothing really appealed to me alot until my Dad installed a copy of X-Plane7 on his computer.  That got me fascinated with the mechanics of airplanes and flight, which in turn lead to me being fascinated with air combat.

I mean, come on young people, Knights of the Air! A history of REAL warriors who fought (and still fight) in the sky for their countries. How can some spell casting BS with a bunch of eye-candy graphics compare to a game about bouncing someone at 400 miles per hour in the hottest, most bad-ass piston engine machines ever built? How can running around a simulated maze with a simulated shotgun (or often enough, it is some completely fantastical sci-fi setup, not even realistic guns) compare to maneuvering and gutting it out in 3 dimensions at hundreds of miles per hour armed with multiple 50 cals and big freakin' cannons?

[texasmom]

BnZ Glad to see you.

[GunnerCAF]

Flight sims have always been a niche market.  We are just a small percentage of the gamers out there.  Good flight sims are expensive to make, and take a lot of time to develop.  Big game companys go for the quick to develop games that have larger markets.  I have been been playing sims since ILS on my C64 and have seem many good sims die.  

Be glad we have HT, maybe thank him the next time you talk to him.  If he decides to pick up his marbles and go home, there may not be another waiting to jump in.

Thanks HT!

Gunner