Author Topic: Corsairs..?  (Read 4096 times)

Offline Brocster

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Corsairs..?
« on: February 28, 2008, 07:50:02 PM »
First of all, apologies ahead of time.  I have been away from the game for almost three years.  I started back in 2001 and had to leave in 2005.  This question may be a bit dated/obvious now, but I am just getting my feet wet again.

Soooooo....

My opinion is that the Corsairs in the past were a bit undermodeled.  I have nothing to base this on other than the fact that their performance in the Arena's did not fit the reputation they had in the historical frame of reference (where many regarded them as the finest prop fighter ever).

The question is this:  WERE they a bit undermodeled back a few years ago, and, has the modelling improved a bit?  The Corsairs seem to fly a bit better and, more honestly, I have been getting shot down a bit more by them!  :)  Fully admit that my piloting skills could have been the reason I felt they were "undermodelled".

I appreciate your comments and I look forward to being in the game a bit!  See you in there!

CrzeMonk (Former SEBrock, former CrzyMonk)

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Offline DoNKeY

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Corsairs..?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2008, 08:32:38 PM »
I *believe* that the flight model was updated, or atleast thier flaps were.  Either way, they now have "teh uber-flappen."

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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2008, 10:16:49 PM »
The entire airflow system was recoded, and somewhere along the way F4us suddenly started turning like spits, instead of like p47s (what they used to do), suddenly they don't dip wings in stalls, are gentle as babes in the woods, and are uber monsters, compared to what they used to be.

I think they are overmodeled NOW, not back then.

Offline Serenity

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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2008, 10:21:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
The entire airflow system was recoded, and somewhere along the way F4us suddenly started turning like spits, instead of like p47s (what they used to do), suddenly they don't dip wings in stalls, are gentle as babes in the woods, and are uber monsters, compared to what they used to be.

I think they are overmodeled NOW, not back then.


I have original film that PROVES the corsairs arent stalling right. I took off from a CV today, TOTALLY botched the takeoff. I SHOULD have augered in without a chance, but instead my F-4U flew off like nothing was wrong!

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2008, 12:45:37 AM »
It's not so much the effectiveness of the aircraft's flaps. Even based on stall speeds alone, the F4U's flaps generate an IMPRESSIVE amount of lift compared to other aircraft, so it's not surprising that they'd provide a significant benefit towards turn radius (that said, I personally try to stay out of situations where I need more than two notches).

The main question is the low-speed, high-power stall.

HOWEVER...

After watching the stall demonstration in the training video someone posted in the previous thread on this subject, I think it's worth noting that when power on and full flaps the aircraft showed nose-tuck and a tendency to fall towards the left in the stall, but it was only with flaps RETRACTED with power on that the F4U actually snapped over on departure in the power-on stall. Additionally, it was with the power OFF with full flaps that likewise generated the instant flip-over on stall.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 12:48:04 AM by Saxman »
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Offline Saxman

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« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 07:33:58 AM »
Incidentally,

I thought I remember either reading or hearing that the main cause of accidents during landing wasn't so much departure behavior of the stall itself, but from inexperienced pilots over-compensating during the stall and applying too much power too suddenly. The sudden increase in torque would then snap the F4U right over.

Again, I'm not certain on this one so take it with a grain of salt until someone with access to better information can confirm.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 08:22:51 AM »
Quote
It's not so much the effectiveness of the aircraft's flaps. Even based on stall speeds alone, the F4U's flaps generate an IMPRESSIVE amount of lift compared to other aircraft, so it's not surprising that they'd provide a significant benefit towards turn radius (that said, I personally try to stay out of situations where I need more than two notches).


 The F4U flaps and their ingenious placement on the trailing edge is no doubt a very interesting design concept to consider, and it is entirely believeable that they may be (up to some extent) more effective than some of its counterparts in various planes.

 However, technically they are nothing but plain flaps, and this fact is clearly stated in even inHTC's own Planes&Vehicles page, from which I quote;

Quote
The F4U-1D has a plain flap that is designed to also aid maneuvering at a setting of up to 20 degrees.  This setting will provide an enhancement to the plane's turning capabilities at a low cost in additional drag.  If you get caught in a turning fight, use of the maneuver setting is highly recommended.  The maneuver flap setting can be used up to speeds of 230 MPH.  For takeoff, 20 degrees of flaps is the normal setting.  Maximum flap deflection is 50 degrees.


 
 Ultimately, a flap is nothing but a mere aid.

 There are many planes in AH with flaps which are techincally more efficient than those of the F4Us, and despite that there are clear limits to how it performs in relation to its basic spec.

 For example, it has been long rumored throughout AH1 and AH2 that the P-38s can turn very well for its size. Actual turn radius testings, including some of my own, have proved that the magic of the P-38s lie in their inherent stability in knife fight situations due to the non-torque status, rather than the turn radius itself, which has proved to be nothing too impressive.

 Both Mosq's and my own testings, confirm the P-38J turns the worst of the following 4 planes; Spit9, Bf109G-6, P-47D-11, P-38J: whether with or without flaps.

 The actual testings on true physical capabilities of the P-38, is in great discrepancy with empirical experience of many people in which the P-38 seems to turn much better than it actually can. In effect, it proves what some people have been guessing for a long time.

 Many people note highly of how the P-38 is equipped with a Fowler-type flap system which is often quoted to be most efficient. They usually attribute the excellent maneuvering characteristics of the P-38 to its flaps - which, quite contrary in reality, as proved by testings, does not actually help out the lumbering fifteen-thousand pound, twin-engined plane by much in turn maneuvering. The P-38, in game as it is, has its turn radius closest to the Fw190s than any other plane. (The Fw190s, ofcourse, being the worst turners in the game)


 What does this tell us?

 It tells us no matter how efficient a flap is, it's not going to make a big, heavy plane overcome a much lighter, nimble plane that is inherently designed to turn better.

 The P-38 utilizes its special status as a plane with neutered torque, which allows its pilots to excell in harsh maneuvering despite its unimpressive turning radius (even with the "efficient" Fowler flaps). So then, what's the F4U got, besides its flaps, that makes it physically turn so much better in actuallity?


 Go to the AH Fighter comparisons page and try a comparison of the following 4 planes:

 F4U-1, F6F-5, Spit9 and the FM-2.

 Compare the turn radius performance of the 4 planes, and one immediately realizes something is truly weird with how the flaps benefit the F4U.

 The worst turning aircraft in normal flight condition, suddenly becomes the 2nd best with full flaps, almost bordering on the performance levels of the FM-2. If the flaps alone can shake around turn radius performance like that, then it is logical to assume the F4U flaps are either providing too much lift, or providing too much stability - because flaps alone, no matter how efficient the system is, will not be able to such drastically alter how a plane can turn.

 I don't think you can keep defending and justifying the current performance of the F4U with the "it's the flaps" reasoning any more. Even Widewing has some choice words to say about the F4U's turn performance being too extreme. He says the same things about the 109s, but 109s at least have the "slats" defense to go by, as well as being a very small and lightweight plane than compared to American iron.

 What's the F4U got beside its flaps, that allows it to physically(not anecdotally) become such a well-turning plane, despite its large size and weight, and a powerful P&W engine full of dangerous torque forces, at such extremely low speeds during knife fighting?

 Try another comparison in the fighter comparisons page, this time a F4U-1 against a Ki-84.

 The Ki-84's also equipped with a highly efficient flap, much more than the Corsair. The two planes are both single-engined, and normal flight conditions show that the Ki-84 has a clear edge over the F4U in turning radius.

 But then, in full flaps, the F4U plain smack outturns the Ki-84, a plane much lighter in weight, inherently better off in wingloading (as demonstrated by normal flight conditions), equipped with one of the most efficient flap systems in the game.

 The Ki-84 is a lighter, better turning plane, with at least as efficient flap systems in place, and the much heavier F4U, with higher engine torque, higher wingloading, just outturns it because of the flaps?

 
 Dude, how can this not be strange?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 08:37:46 AM by Kweassa »

Offline SgtPappy

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« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2008, 11:43:25 PM »
It must be a typo. It is well-known by the F4U buffs that the Corsair carries slotted flaps, not plain flaps.

But I think that you may be correct to some extent. The F4U turns too tight... it's ridiculously good even for slotted flaps.

Btw, turn radius isn't everything. The P-38 has a dreadful turn radius but it turns so tremendously fast (since its flaps ARE efficient in that they provide higher lift coefficients for a lower cost in drag compared to other planes' flaps) that it can pull a lower angle of attack than another plane but encounter much less drag. So turn RATE is more important.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 11:46:29 PM by SgtPappy »
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2008, 12:20:09 AM »
Quote
But I think that you may be correct to some extent. The F4U turns too tight... it's ridiculously good even for slotted flaps.

Btw, turn radius isn't everything. The P-38 has a dreadful turn radius but it turns so tremendously fast (since its flaps ARE efficient in that they provide higher lift coefficients for a lower cost in drag compared to other planes' flaps) that it can pull a lower angle of attack than another plane but encounter much less drag. So turn RATE is more important.


 True.

 What you have mentioned is sort of the point:  despite the efficient flaps, the Fowlers do not really help out in greatly shortening the pure physical turn radius of the P-38 - contrary, to which many people believe.

 Instead, like you've mentioned, the excellent Fowlers act in conjunction with the neutered-torque status of the P-38, in which it can pull high physical extremes and make its transition from powerful initial/instantaneous turn into a low-speed, high AoA sustained turn in a very natural and smooth manner - whereas most single engined planes experience a very discomforting transitional phase in trying to slow down to a sustained turn, due to instability coming from torque effects.

 As a result, the P-38, despite the horrid pure physical turn radius, in many cases outturns planes with a smaller turn radius.

 But the F4U... its flaps allows it to outturn other planes by giving it a physically smaller turning radius than planes that are almost half its weight and size, and turns better than itself in normal flight conditions - which implies the flaps are giving the Corsair a lift powerful enough to make a heavy, inherently worse turning plane, physically turn the tables when its flaps are out.


 Now, that's some flaps. Makes one almost wonder if Chance-Vaught invented a anti-G device in the form of flaps.

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2008, 12:31:16 AM »
Some bizarre side-effect of the F4U's wing configuration?
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2008, 02:37:25 AM »
I don't believe I've seen any sources quoting the "inverted gull wing" had more to do with than just 1) solving the landing gear problem and 2) providing a relatively low-drag design for the fairings.

 On the other hand, almost every source quotes the 'Ensign eliminator' problem, where they often mention;

Quote
... the inevitable issue of the enormous torque of the Double Wasp: if a pilot was waved off a carrier landing, he would throttle up and bank off to the left for another pass, and the Corsair had a nasty tendency to flip over on its back if revved up incautiously.

 Yet another peculiarity was that, due to propwash effects, the left wing would stall before the right on the landing approach, which tended to make the aircraft roll to the left as well.


 
 ..

 If there are any sources out there which mentions that a gull-wing would provide enough beneficial effects to enable a twelve-thousand pound aircraft physically outturn (by the radius) a seven-thousand pound aircraft (which normally outturns it by a wide margin), when flaps are being used for both aircraft, I'd love to see what the aerodynamical explanation is behind it.

 If there aren't any particular sources noting that a F4U's gull wings had some sort of fantastic effect that is highly beneficial specifically when it is engaged in a low-speed sustained turn contest with flaps engaged, then I would think it'd be logical to assume the FM concerning the flaps is wrong, rather than assume the F4U had some previously unrecognized potential which defies empirical circumstances.

 
 In simpler terms, I don't see how a F4U can physically outturn by the radius a contemporary Spitfire or a Ki-84 with full flaps, when both the Spit and the Ki outturns the F4U easily during normal turns without flaps. The lumbering F4U suddenly turns into a FM2 - just because of the flaps, which I call "weird".
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 02:39:55 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Stoney

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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 02:46:03 AM »
A couple of definitions:

Use of flaps tends to lower the stalling angle of attack.  Even though the coefficient of lift is raised, the wing actually stalls earlier, with respect to AoA.

Plain Flap:  Adds camber to the wing, creating more lift.

Split Flap:  Adds camber, but with more drag

Slotted Flap: Adds camber to the wing, but due to the gap between the flap and the wing, allows air to pass through, meaning it creates more lift with less relative drag

Fowler Flap:  As the flap extends down and back, it creates camber and increases wing area, so in effect, Fowler flaps not only create more lift, but also reduce wing loading, to a degree.  

While Fowler Flaps are considered the "most efficient", this is a misleading term, as a more proper description would be "have the most potential".  Just because one aircraft has Fowler Flaps and another has a plain or split flap, it cannot be said that the aircraft with the Fowlers always has a more efficient flap system.  In fact, it is possible that an aircraft with merely plain flaps can have a more effective and efficient flap system than one with Fowlers, if its properly designed.  There are many more variables that impact the effectiveness and efficiency of the flap system on any given aircraft.  In the perpetual use of trade-offs in aircraft design, designers are always looking to strike the best compromise of desired aerodynamic characteristics that allow the aircraft to perform its designed mission.  Things like flap chord, flap span, flap angle, flapped airfoil characteristics, and most importantly, flapped wing area (that portion of the wing that is actually affected by the flaps) are some of the various factors that come into play.  I'd have to do some research to confirm my suspicion, but the Corsair seems to have broad chord flaps, and a great deal of flapped wing area.  It'd be interesting to find some scale drawings of the aircraft previously mentioned and do the analysis to determine if there were any characteristics related to the geometry that could spell the difference.  

In game, its all the same "air" that each plane is flying in, so there has to be a difference with the geometry that makes the Corsair flaps so effective.  I'm not saying they're exactly right, but obviously are in harmony with the flight model, so I suspect there is a reason as to why, other than simply "uber-ness".
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 03:57:44 AM »
Heaven help us, don't make this about P38s Kweassa.  That discussion has been beaten to death :)

He was asking about F4U's:aok
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Offline Saxman

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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2008, 09:23:27 AM »
Has anyone done a real study of the F4U's flap design? As stated previously they definitely provide a HUGE amount of lift, as is evident from the significant reduction in stall speed, compared to the flaps of, say, the P-51. And as Pappy mentioned, the F4U used slotted flaps which, as pointed out by Stoney, cause less drag.

This is also why I think it's important to know HOW the flaps work in regards to the airflow code. Does HTC just plug in an estimate of how much lift the flaps provide? Or do they tell the game the angle, chord and area of the flaps, how it affects the wing area, and let the airflow over the flaps determine this itself?

I won't deny that engine torque in the F4Us need to be addressed, (the same is probably also the case in other aircraft as well) but so far no one's really posted convincing data that shows that the effect of flaps on turn radius by itself (disregarding low-speed, high-power stability issues from engine torque) is off.
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Offline Old Sport

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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2008, 10:36:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney
I'd have to do some research to confirm my suspicion, but the Corsair seems to have broad chord flaps, and a great deal of flapped wing area.  It'd be interesting to find some scale drawings of the aircraft previously mentioned and do the analysis to determine if there were any characteristics related to the geometry that could spell the difference.


I think you've hit the nail on the head. Whatever carrier landing difficulties the Corsair experienced, I've never read that it was too "hot."
 
Three view drawings

The first list of drawings are Russian planes. Some of these drawings are not high quality, but some seem useful.

Slotted flaps.




Spitfire flaps


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