Author Topic: Who'da thunk? Guns best crime deterrent after all  (Read 2834 times)

Offline lazs2

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Who'da thunk? Guns best crime deterrent after all
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2008, 08:08:28 AM »
the point that nashwan and others are ignoring.. even some gun rights guys is..

what happens when you pass gun laws?   did england become safer?

No it did not.  there were not less crimes.. crime is up.. there was not less murders..i they never had many murders and they still don't.   they may have less firearms murders (for now) but.. who cares?   the country is full of guns.. the reason isn't that they don't exist anymore it is the fact that the penalty for using them... by anyone is medieval..   they barely stopped short of cutting off the offenders hand.

The same could have been accomplished by simply applying those draconian laws to gun crime only.. not citizens.   just the criminals.   I could get a gun in england.   I could do it in a week... I could make one in a day or two.  I don't think I am that much more resourceful than what is left of english "citizens".

nashwan and others will argue that our lax gun laws have not decreased crime.. they may have some point.. crime is about the same.. violent crime against people is down tho... Homicides..  gun or otherwise.. is down from it's highest point.. a point when concealed carry was against the law btw.

What it boils down to is the right to defend yourself... from anyone...  you have no right if it means that only the strength of your muscles determine the outcome...  only the young and fit have rights then.

No right at all.  

We all know that the government.. who makes the laws.. can't protect us..  call the cops.. they will get there in time to take the report.

People wear seatbelts to protect themselves... the chance it will save them are thousands to one.   are they foolish?  did a man who wore a seatbelt every day of his life and chafed at it every single day.. and never once needed it.. is he foolish or is he just seeing an danger and doing his best to protect himself?

Same for guns..  they are a part of my life.. they are also fun and I enjoy em (unlike seatbelts)   the chance that I will be the victim of a violent crime are 1 in four.   I have already used firearms to stop crime against me.

I would say that a simple risk assessment would make me smarter than the seat belt wearer but... to each his own.. Like I said.. I would not tell anyone they had to have a gun or wear a seatbelt or.. have fire insurance for that matter.

I am disgusted by those who feel they have the right to.


lazs

Offline Charon

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Who'da thunk? Guns best crime deterrent after all
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2008, 12:47:17 PM »
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This board is full of gun threads started by gun owners in the US moaning loudly about their rights and paranoid percieved threats to the freedom to own guns.


My "paranoia" is why I have to call my county and state legislators about every two months to comment on a bill or bills that have been introduced by the Daley machine in Chicago.

The last County bill, for example, would have banned all semi automatic pistols, rifles, most standard capacity pistol magazines, "laser sights" .50 caliber rifles (never used in a crime); many semi automatic shotguns; most semi automatic rifles (used in under 2 percent of all homicides); and added taxes to the handful of revolvers and "sporting" weapons allowed.  

The fairly broad assault weapons ban this aimed to replace was passed in 20006 by forcing though a quick vote without community comment or agenda  notification so we were denied the ability to let our legislators know our objections. Think Meigs field. The ISRA has filed suit over that one.

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ANALYSIS OF COOK COUNTY
ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN

Effective November 14, 2006, a Cook County gun ban Ordinance criminalizes the otherwise lawful possession of many common firearms and large capacity magazines. The law provides for imprisonment up to 6 months, fines, and confiscation and destruction of the enumerated weapons. Owners of such firearms or large capacity magazines have until February 12, 2007 to either remove the affected guns and remove any large capacity magazines from Cook County or surrender them to the police for destruction.

What firearms and magazines are affected by this county wide ban? Over 60 firearms are specifically listed as being illegal, including the deer rifle popular in many Midwest states, the SKS with a detachable magazine. Popular self defense weapons like the Mossberg 500 pump, and popular target shooting semiautomatic AR-15 are also illegal. In addition, all magazines that can hold more than 10 shells are banned.

The Ordinance specifically bans any semiautomatic shotgun that has a fixed magazine with a capacity in excess of five rounds. Since shotgun shell rounds can be obtained in sizes as short as 2 inches, the ordinance can be construed to ban all common semiautomatic shotguns.

In addition to banning over 60 enumerated firearms, the Ordinance defines certain banned firearms with catch-all definitions. One such carefully worded definition bans any semiautomatic rifle that need not have, but has the ability to accept a large capacity magazine and has,

    "A shroud attached to the barrel, or that partially or completely encircles the barrel, allowing the bearer to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned, but excluding a slide that encloses the barrel,"

A standard dictionary definition of the word shroud is, “something that covers, screens, or guards.” The ordinance defines this “shroud” as something that allows the holding of the rifle in the off hand that would keep the shooter’s off hand from being burned. The Ordinance only excludes from this categorization a “slide,” a term usually applying to the top piece of a semiautomatic handgun. Missing from the exclusion is any verbiage about “the forearm assembly,” “fore-end,” or “stock”. An arguable interpretation of the word “shroud” as used in the Cook County Ordinance would include the standard forearm or stock that allows normal two handed shooting.

In determining the likelihood of Ordinance being interpreted to cover all standard semiautomatic rifles, we can look to the past history in Cook County. The current and prior States Attorneys of Cook County have previously interpreted criminal statutes in an unreasonable manner to justify charging otherwise law abiding citizens with gun possession crimes. These prior anti-gun interpretations have defied common sense and contradicted prior case law. Because the interpretations have been publicly stated to be the official interpretation, all Cook County Assistant States Attorneys are required to use them in determining what charges would be filed. One of the recent examples of the way Cook County prosecutors interpret the law unreasonably has been their failure to acknowledge that current state law allows the carrying of an unloaded gun in specially designed fanny packs. One would expect the Cook County States Attorney’s Office to continue their tradition of interpreting gun laws in a manner to include as many gun owners as possible, and therefore to start charging under the new Ordinance owners of semiautomatic firearms that could be held by two hands, which is for all practical purposes, all semiautomatic rifles.


More recently (last week), I just called on a similar State version of the Current Cook AWB where there is no grandfather clause, and possession of one of the semi automatic rifles in question is a class 3 felony.

Then there are the 5 versions of the ammo serialization bill that aims to economically deter gun ownerships by driving ammunition sales out of the state or making ammunition too expensive, while being fairly easy for criminals to get around.

There are the regular bullet tax initiatives designed to eliminate gun ownership unless you want to pay dramatically more to shoot.

There is the ongoing legislation to ban all gun shops in cook county.

Given the votes from Chicago's "staff" legislators on the CC board and in the State Legislature it's always a tough, uphill fight that hinges on 1-3 votes or so, most of the time. All these bills come from Chicago-based legislators. All are pushed by Daley, the same guy that tried to sue virtually all gun manufacturers out of business a few years back.

So yeah. I guess I am being paranoid about the ability for me to become a felon overnight and lose rights that people living in every state around me and most states in the US freely enjoy, because the mayor needs a scape goat for his failed leadership and the failed social policies of the 1960s.

It would be like waking up and finding you can't post on message boards in your state because some pedophiles use them to troll for victims and we need "sensible speech control."

Charon
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 12:51:06 PM by Charon »

Offline Curval

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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2008, 12:59:14 PM »
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Originally posted by Charon
It would be like waking up and finding you can't post on message boards in your state because some pedophiles use them to troll for victims and we need "sensible speech control."


lol

Yea...it's JUST like that.  NOT.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Charon

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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2008, 01:13:41 PM »
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No, what is strange and ironic is the ones who go gaga over gun ownership rights are usually the same ones who will happily give up their rights to privacy in the name of security.


Well, to me gun rights is a hot button issue because it is under heavy attack on at least a quarterly basis in my state. But, I respect the entire BOR and find the transgressions under the past two administrations to be terrible.

My only real beefs against Clinton (at best an average president, IMO) were the AWB BS and the way he diluted the 4th to pander to the "Get tough on Crime, WOD" crowd when he moved to the middle. And, I'm still not sold on NAFTA without greater parity.

I think GWB (have never voted for the man) was a disaster on many levels, the BOR included. I only hope his Supreme Court appointments do a better job down the road than they did on No Knock searches and eminent Domain.

My candidate is (was) Ron Paul, a true candidate for the type of change I want to see in Washington.

Charon

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2008, 01:16:46 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
No, what is strange and ironic is the ones who go gaga over gun ownership rights are usually the same ones who will happily give up their rights to privacy in the name of security.


I believe you have your spurs tangled up in your bloomers.........so to speak.


......And Curvie, do try to get a grip, will ya? :rofl
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2008, 01:37:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Jackal1
......And Curvie, do try to get a grip, will ya? :rofl


Oh I have a grip.  You just type stuff and then pretend you meant something else.

You got called.

If not, all you need to do is explain what you meant.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Charon

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« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2008, 01:46:00 PM »
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Yea...it's JUST like that. NOT.


Back up your opinion.

You obviously do not respect firearm ownership as a right. It's not like you have that right to being with. However, there are plenty of people who show as little respect for the rest of the BOR and would impose restrictions on the Internet in a heartbeat. Can they in a practical sense, no. At least not today in the US. But throughout the world they can and do. But that is not the point I was making. I was offering a parallel comparison for those who only respect some parts of the BOR, and not others, as to why I might care about the issue.

But, the comparison is probably closer than you would like to admit.

Exercisers of free speech who have a national and international audience:

NAMBLA - recruitment and propaganda. People on this board have called for it's banning since it supports pedophilia.

Hate Groups - recruitment and propaganda (the turner diaries is linked to the Oklahoma City bombings and a range of hate attacks)

Pornography - morality, feminist backlash. Think of the Children! Even if you like to glance at the latest playboy there is extreme content of all spectrums to be shocked and outraged over. In fact, lets restrict all porn (if you can) since some small terrible percentage involves children or sexual slavery.

Terrorism - recruitment and propaganda. Wheres that Daniel Pearl video, or Osama's latest video?

In fact, most of the same arguments can be made for 1st Amendment restrictions as the 2nd Amendment. I can clearly imagine the framers anticipated the advancement of personal weapons.  For that matter improved printing presses. But 24 hour TV news and the Internet? Why are sensible controls off the table with this right, but not the others?

Historically, the pen is mightier than the Sword -- without propaganda it's a lot harder to have aggressor world wars and genocides. Do the Nazis' rise to power? Do you think of your Jewish neighbors as nothing better than sewer rats (we've all seen the film. Gobbles was hardly subtle, but it played to the audience). It's a lot easier to go into Iraq if the press corps doesn't ask the tough questions and instead sucks up for the best embed slot in the big show.  It's a lot easier to have the Spanish American War because Randolph Hearst decided it should be so and used his media empire to make it happen. Most of the "glory" killings we see, like the Virginia Tech shootings, might use a gun in the crime, but it is the international media attention that drives the crime.

Free speech is a powerful thing, but a tremendously dangerous thing. My private citizen rifle will never kill 20 million people, but someday it may help stop a tyrant that would.

Today, the internet represents a bypass to state controlled (or in the "free world" state compliant corporate) media. There is plenty of motivation to control the Web and plenty of buttons to push to try and make that happen among both politicians and even the corporate media itself. Fortunately, for now, the corporate media is forced to use its 1st amendment power to protect what has been established firmly as a sacred cow. But, perhaps the next formal corporate Internet will bypass the anarchy we have on the Web today.

Charon
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 02:01:58 PM by Charon »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2008, 01:52:04 PM »
you guys should not expect curvie to back up his snide remarks with anything of substance..  at best.. you will get an slightly expanded snide remark.  

nashwans thinking may  be greatly flawed in my opinion but I do give him credit for explaining why he thinks the way he does.

lazs

Offline Curval

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« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2008, 02:10:06 PM »
Back up what?  That I don't think that this is the same:

"It would be like waking up and finding you can't post on message boards in your state because some pedophiles use them to troll for victims and we need "sensible speech control."

What you wrote has nothing to do with gun control in my opinion.

Will that do....I don't have time for walls of text?
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2008, 02:10:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Oh I have a grip.  You just type stuff and then pretend you meant something else.

You got called.

If not, all you need to do is explain what you meant.


The term "Lost like a babe in the woods" comes to mind.
Read the post as many times as it takes you to understand it.
If it`s too tough for you, carry on please.
I`m Jackal1 and I approve this message. :aok
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2008, 02:35:18 PM »
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What you wrote has nothing to do with gun control in my opinion.


Why?

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Will that do....I don't have time for walls of text?


The why post? If you can't back up your point it must not be much of a point.

Charon

Offline Curval

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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2008, 02:52:22 PM »
Good lord.

Someone taking away your guns does not, in my opinion, equate to giving a pedophile free access to minors because of some freedom of speech argument.

Apples/oranges.

That is ALL I am saying.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Elfie

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Who'da thunk? Guns best crime deterrent after all
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2008, 03:01:45 PM »
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Originally posted by Curval
Good lord.

Someone taking away your guns does not, in my opinion, equate to giving a pedophile free access to minors because of some freedom of speech argument.

Apples/oranges.

That is ALL I am saying.


It does equate. Both issues concern different parts of the Bill of Rights. Both issues would take away something from all law abiding folks based on the misdeeds of a few. I don't think I can say it any simpler than that. :)
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2008, 03:13:30 PM »
It does equate. Both issues concern different parts of the Bill of Rights. Both issues would take away something from all law abiding folks based on the misdeeds of a few. I don't think I can say it any simpler than that. :)

lol
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2008, 03:21:27 PM »
The Bill of Rights as a whole is something some of us hold very dear Curval. An attack on one part is no different than an attack on another part. The Bill of Rights itself is being attacked and eroded in both cases.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.