Author Topic: ADHD question.  (Read 2008 times)

Offline Chairboy

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2008, 11:34:50 PM »
<sigh>  The NRA was part of the problem this time, they accepted the text as is.  I don't know where you got the 'it was all fixed, yay!' idea, citation please.  The bill was, as far as I know, passed intact with a provision that had an incredibly vague definition of what constituted a disqualifying condition.  ADD/ADHD, anyone with alzheimers or PTSD diagnosis in their history, etc.  Under it, the government can confiscate the gun collection of grandpa when he moves in with family to care for his alzheimers.

The enthusiasm with which you strip your children of possible future careers is sad, and I can only surmise from your lack of response on my questions about how confident you were in the diagnosis that you may not, in fact, be confident that the proper diagnosis was made.  Parenting your kids by medicating them into malleability isn't something I'd do, and I hope it's not what you're doing.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2008, 02:45:57 AM »
<sigh>  The NRA was part of the problem this time, they accepted the text as is.  I don't know where you got the 'it was all fixed, yay!' idea, citation please.  The bill was, as far as I know, passed intact with a provision that had an incredibly vague definition of what constituted a disqualifying condition.  ADD/ADHD, anyone with alzheimers or PTSD diagnosis in their history, etc.  Under it, the government can confiscate the gun collection of grandpa when he moves in with family to care for his alzheimers.

The enthusiasm with which you strip your children of possible future careers is sad, and I can only surmise from your lack of response on my questions about how confident you were in the diagnosis that you may not, in fact, be confident that the proper diagnosis was made.  Parenting your kids by medicating them into malleability isn't something I'd do, and I hope it's not what you're doing.

Indeed.  The language "adjudicated to be mentally defective" is fairly specific but thanks for the legal lesson.

As far as Uncle Sam goes, by no means unless one is deemed by their attending physician to be a "mental defective" or a danger to society, all health records are protected by a patients HIPPA rights.  In plain English,   ones medical history, unless dangerous to ones self, others, or proof of said medical condition is or has been found to be linked to criminal activity in that particular individual, does not show up on a NICS check.  Not many things, short of a court order, can violate these HIPPA rights.

The verbiage from the (NICS) site for persons disqualified from obtaining firearms (in this context anyhow) is as follows:

• "A person adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution or incompetent to handle own affairs, including dispositions to criminal charges pertaining to found not guilty by reason of insanity or found incompetent to stand trial."

Adjudicated means by court's (Judge's) formal determination and that is the key word.  Only a judge can formally put this black mark on your record and only then will it show up on a background check.  The courts are pretty specific on violating a private, non-criminal, citizens' medical privacy, hence the initial enactment of these HIPPA laws.  Speculation, rhetoric, and hearsay about which particular medical conditions are included won't cut it.  The judicial system does not normally make a habit of reading between the lines. 

Most of this new law's language was revised to require states and governing bodies to give quarterly, expedited ( email, fax, or by other electronic means and not snail mail) reports or changes in disposition of any persons that fail the requirements under the terms of the law.  It also updated and stiffened the penalties for non-compliance with these new standards.  The actual verbiage and definition of who falls into the category of non-eligible persons has not changed.  Basically the NICS people were tired of taking the heat for not screening well enough, when it wasn't completely their fault.  They were not being given current, updated information in a timely enough manner.  Under the former legislation, certain necessary information may not have posted for 6 months to a year on a NICS report.   In essence, these changes have not re-defined who is disqualified from the possession, etc of firearms, but rather how expeditiously any pertinent information on a particular individual is reported. 

It's also very noble of you to defend my children's' rights  to fly an aircraft, my friend.   I'm fairly certain, though, that there will be plenty of other career choices in their future.  With a good education that they will be able to pay attention to, it will broaden those choices more, even if it strips them of a few select others.  But, for now, they have no choices.  They are children, not consenting, educated and mature adults.   They will not be afforded any choices either until they have proven that they have the intellect, maturity, and wisdom to make them on their own.  They may express a desire to make particular choices or decisions in life, but parenthood is in no way a democracy and some things are not up for discussion.  I have absolutely no obligation to my children to furnish reasons for the decisions that I may make for them, nor do I need to explain the logic of any decisions to them.  I am not running a debate team, I am raising children.  So hang on to your knickers for this one......   I DON"T CARE IF MY CHILDREN LIKE MY DECISIONS.  I am not their friend, pal, confidant, nor am I their colleague or peer.  I am their FATHER.  When they grow up, reach adulthood and    move out on their own, then the dynamics of our relationship will change to one of social equality.  I know this philosophy is quite alien, dictatorial,  or old-school to some, but thats the way it works here.  I'm also OK if they don't like  me. I'm not having a popularity contest here.  It sits very well with me if they have a healthy fear of the consequences of behaving or acting in an inappropriate manner.   

As far as lack of response to your questions is concerned, I apologize for not addressing it clearly enough.  You may consider the following my final answer. I guarantee you with the utmost certainty that I have an unerring confidence in the the diagnoses of ADD for my children.  I lived with it for many years wondering if there was some medical condition I was suffering from.  They, however, will not.  I can also assure you that it wasn't a lack of parenting on my parents part.

As for the fact of medicating my children into malleability, thank you for your repeated, unsolicited opinions.  In fact, as a former NCO in the US Army's Airborne Division, I'm fairly confident that I have a firm grasp on what the definition of discipline is, and how to make use of the many ways to impart these concepts into the though processes of my children.  Medication is used sparingly and  as a tool to help them better absorb and retain life lessons, as they were unfortunately not born with all the same tools as others posses.

As for your opinions on raising children?  It's admirable for you to have a firm stance.  If you don't have any children yourself, find a good and proper spouse (if you don't have one already), inject them with your half of the genetic code in whatever manner suits you, squeeze out a few pups, and raise them as you see fit.  If you do have offspring, then carry-on, sir.  In the meantime, I will do as I see fit in my house.   If I feel the need for reinforcement, encouragement, or approval for the manner in which I run things in my own household, take solace in the fact that I will not look to these forums for it.

 
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Offline JBA

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2008, 08:12:28 AM »
My IQ was 149 as of 1991.   I was outgrowing ADHD by 9th grade.   

It makes me laugh when folks talk about it and haven't a squealing clue about what they are talking about.   Keep it up.   I feed off of it.   
I call BS on the 149 dude.
O hay look rain man came out in 1988. what do you know. Autism rates went throught he roof.


« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 08:23:12 AM by JBA »
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Offline Suave

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2008, 09:33:51 AM »
This is an interesting subject.

When I was in about first and second grade I had a verbal tic. I would often repeat my sentences, or the last part of the sentence, to myself. This lasted for about a year, year and a half. I was wondering if any of you guys with AS or ADD or high functioning autism had anything like this.

I have a thought on IQ tests and people with ADD or AS. Vocabulary is a big factor in IQ testing. An expansive vocabulary is a characteristic of children with ADD and AS. Does this mean that these nuerological atypical kids are really so intelligent, or does it mean that the IQ test is not an accurate guage for them?

Also I would like to comment on another thread here about the speculation that Einstein had AS. I don't believe that he did. He had a healthy sense of humor and romantic relationships. But I don't think he was neurologicaly typical. In my opinion he matches more closesly the profile of somebody with ADD. For example failed in school, day dreamer, teachers deemed him stupid, disregard for illogical social norms, refering to uninteresting scholastic work as "torturous".

One last thing. How many of you fall in the Myers-Briggs INTP classification? To me it seems that many ADD types would fall into this category.

Offline texasmom

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2008, 10:01:55 AM »
What I've seen with ADHD is that no medication will ever give a child (or adult, for that matter) the tools that they need to be successful.  Regardless of whether medication is present or not, the tools that they need (discipline & self-discipline) are entirely learned. As a parent, you can guide them & provide a stable enough structure to choose success over failure in all that they do.  Even kids without ADD/ADHD need all that... just takes extra patience and attentiveness to get ADD/ADHD kids to the point where the rest of the kids are at (regarding self-discipline)

Tourette's is something different though ~ as far as TxDad & I are concerned w/Tourette's, the most we've ever hoped to do for our son is to encourage enough self-confidence in his own abilities that if/when he's ridiculed for it, that it's not demoralizing enough to him that it hinders him.... he's to just keep on trucking, regardless of the jeers. 


*edit*
Here's a youtube clip. Even look at the title of the clip. That's a standard reaction to Tourette's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3cD6RV4Rb8&feature=related
We've found that keeping our child in a state of mind in which he continually wishes to move forward instead of crawl into a hole has been the most difficult part.  Thankfully, he's just a fantastic person (one of the neatest people I've ever met), which sure makes it easy to constantly reassure him, and to push him forward in an encouraging manner.

On a funny note though, we never lose him in a store :)
Just listen for a few seconds, and you'll hear him :)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 10:16:05 AM by texasmom »
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2008, 10:13:21 AM »
What I've seen with ADHD is that no medication will ever give a child (or adult, for that matter) the tools that they need to be successful.  Regardless of whether medication is present or not, the tools that they need (discipline & self-discipline) are entirely learned. As a parent, you can guide them & provide a stable enough structure to choose success over failure in all that they do.  Even kids without ADD/ADHD need all that... just takes extra patience and attentiveness to get ADD/ADHD kids to the point where the rest of the kids are at (regarding self-discipline)

Tourette's is something different though ~ as far as TxDad & I are concerned w/Tourette's, the most we've ever hoped to do for our son is to encourage enough self-confidence in his own abilities that if/when he's ridiculed for it, that it's not demoralizing enough to him that it hinders him.... he's to just keep on trucking, regardless of the jeers. 



<S> for that.

Tell TxBoy to ignore it.  Let him know that ignoring it is going to be hard, hard, hard.   Also remind him the greatest successes are only gained once we release ourselves from self-imposed limitations.  Give him a list of famous folks that probably were laughed at, what they were laughed at about, and what they achieved, regardless. 

Wright Brothers - "I'm gonna build a flying machine"

Neal Armstrong - "I'm gonna walk on the moon"

etc, etc.  I'm sure you get the point.

:salute parents who encourage their children to work around  their particular ailments rather than use them as a crutch.
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Offline Suave

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2008, 10:15:31 AM »
My ex-wife is a PhD Psychologist that specializes in ADD, AD/HD, and Anxiety disorders in children to young adults.

It was her point of view and the subject of much of her studies that ADD and AD/HD were the most misdiagnosed of all mental problems.  Her studies of her patients showed that on the order of 95% actually just needed structure and consequences in their lives and their behavior would change to that of someone not diagnosed.  The ones with true problems turned out to mostly be anxiety disorders, and with treatment in dealing with their anxieties they (the patient) could overcome these difficulties and live a normal life. 

She went on to do a study that compared the increasing use of non parental aids (mostly television and video games) as parenting tools of today to the times when parents actually were parents as being the root of most of these new diagnosis of ADD and AD/HD.

While I did not get along with her as a whole, I do highly respect her dedication and work in her chosen profession.  She is widely respected as a leading Doctor in the Psychological Field as an advocate of less medication and more hands on parental interaction with kids.

Many co-morbitity conditions in individuals with ADD such as anxiety or depression are secondary to the ADD. In other words they are the result of ADD not the cause. For example the video I posted about the 11 y/o boy first diagnosed with depression and consequently medicated with antidepressants. He later attempted suicide, was re-examined and diagnosed with ADD, began treatment for ADD and the depression resolved.

For some reason my doctor wanted to sadle me with PTSD. I was doubtfull but complied. Doubtfull because I had my problems all my life, long before any really ugly experiences. I guess he just thought that PTSD was more glamorous. PTSD and ADD do share a lot of similar characteristics. He started me on zoloft and it did aleviate anxiety, and that was a problem. Because with lower inhibitions my ADD problems were exacerbated, badly. The sexual side effects of zoloft were a deal breaker anyway.
So appearantly my anxiety, which he judged as unusual but not clinical, is a coping mechanism that I've developed secondary to ADD. I still prefer to call it ADD because the term ADHD conjures up thoughts of hyperactive kids in the lay person's mind. People and children with ADD largely are not hyperactive, if anything they are hypoactive.

Offline C(Sea)Bass

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2008, 10:18:12 AM »
I have a thought on IQ tests and people with ADD or AS. Vocabulary is a big factor in IQ testing. An expansive vocabulary is a characteristic of children with ADD and AS. Does this mean that these nuerological atypical kids are really so intelligent, or does it mean that the IQ test is not an accurate guage for them?
I have Asperger's Syndrome and have taken a number of IQ tests (Massachusetts requires Pysch testing of all Special Ed. students every 4 years). The test result always showed my IQ to be around 120. Personally I feel that is a reasonable number. I have a great learning capacity when it comes to some things, i.e. Vocabulary,concecpt grasping. But I have no ability to learn other things, i.e. foreign languge, memorization, spelling.
So I think the test balances out in my case, the portions that I do well with balance with what I do not do well with.
Like you said the test can be biased towards cetrain areas. I think typical AS causes strength witht hings such as Vocabulary, which the test can be biased towards, giving the appearence of higher intelligence.
I also beleive that people with AS do tend to be more intelligent because of the way their brains are configured. More of the brain is used for memory, and learning, than in a typical person. This is counter balanced by less of the brain being used for other things, in my case organization and social skills.

On the subject of Einstein, I do think he had AS. as you said "For example failed in school, day dreamer, teachers deemed him stupid, disregard for illogical social norms, refering to uninteresting scholastic work as "torturous"." that is all very common in AS, and I see all of it in myself. As far as his romantic interests and Humor, that is possible with AS as well. I doubt anyone here can question my sense of humor. Romantic relationships are not impossible with AS, I have had multiple long term relationships, my Dad has a picture perfect marriage with my Mom and he has AS.
One celebrity I can assure you has AS is Bill Gates. Michangelo (the painter) is rumored to have had it as well.

On the subject of ADD/ADHD misdiagnosis, when I was 4 I was diagnosed with ADHD. After 2 years of medication and counseling only made me worse, my parents took me to another psychologist who diagnosed me with AS. Multiple pyschologists have since made the same diagnosis, including my aunt (she is in no postion to gain from me being diagnosed).

If you really beleive parents try to pawn their kids off with ADD/ADHD/Autism diagnosises, then you should see the bills my parents pay for my treatment. 15 years of Medication, counseling, various group therapies, special help at school, and a fascination technology called Neurofeedback, are not cheap. And guess what, all that and my childhood a was still a living hell, so I doubt you can say my parents were trying to blame a mental illness, for anything. By the way, parents of AS children also get counseling.

Of all the kids i met in the different programs (SPED, Counseling, etc...) I can assure everyone of them had a legitimate problem. I am sure that some times parents do try to blame ADD etc... for their childrens behavior when it is really a lack of structure or consequences, but most of those cases are probably weeded out by the professionals, or the parents stop the treatments when they realize they have no effect.

Offline C(Sea)Bass

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2008, 10:38:08 AM »
TxMom your ideas, I beleive, about medications are exactly right. I had to take all kinds of junk over the years and each time it did the same thing, it covered the behavior rather than change it. No matter what they gave me I kept having problems because the meds could only cover so much before another problem would arise as a result of the true problem never really being solved.

I do beleive meds should be used at times. They allow the individual to function well enough that the problem can be corrected through therapy and counselling (I know nothing about tourette's so I cannot say this is true in that case as well). Too often now meds are used in place of therapy instead of as in addition to therapy.

A bit of a story here to illustrate my point.
when I was younger the biggest issue for me, and the one the, meds tried to target was my temper. In 6th grade I spent 70 out of 180 school days suspended, that was while on meds and receiving counselling. In 7th grade, while only on meds, I was suspended for 153 of 180 days. That shows that meds do nothing without counselling.
At the very end of 8th grade I participated in what was, at the time, a new technology called Neurofeedback. Basically they hook up wires to certain spots of the head and the wires measure certain brain waves associated with the problem being targeted. Those wires lead to a computer which uses the waves to play basic computer games. When the brain waves are in the target range the game goes well, when they are in a bad range the game goes badly. Basically its rewarding the brain for thinking happy thoughts. This trains the brain, over time (8 months for me), to be happy.
After that program, in 8th grade I was not suspended once all year. Not one single detention, nor one incident.

It just goes to show meds are not a solution, but a tool that can be used to help guide people to the solution.

Give TxBoy a big WTG from me, I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who deal with the harassment other kids can give out. :salute

Offline Suave

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2008, 11:00:34 AM »
Ok, I guess I don't have a good understanding of what AS is then. So then what is the difference between AS and ADD?

Offline C(Sea)Bass

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2008, 11:08:31 AM »
Ok, I guess I don't have a good understanding of what AS is then. So then what is the difference between AS and ADD?


I'm not too knowledgeable on ADD so I can;t make a comparision, but i can sum up AS very quickly.

Asperger's Syndrome is a form of Autism. Typical AS is displayed as:
1. Poor Social skills
2. Poor Organization
3. Physical problems (i.e. poor coordination, slow reaction time, difficulty learning to do physical tasks [poor muscle memory])
4. Difficulty with types of memorization
5. Great memory capability in subjects that are interesting
6. Typically good at learning concepts rather than facts (the exact opposite is also possible)

Thats a basic and brief summary from the knowledge that I have.

Offline Suave

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2008, 11:37:00 AM »
Ok, I had read that a characteristic of AS was having difficulty understanding metaphor and taking everything literally, which results in difficulty understanding humor. Also problems understanding nonverbal/body language, this is also a characteristic of ADD.

I watched a documentary about a guy with AS, and he was basically unemotional, he just didn't know what emotions were except from a observational perspective.

It sounds like AS is a lot like ADD, just more severe. Many common characteristics, lack of physical coordination, indepth and esoteric knowledge of a narrow field of interest. Difficulty reading social cues, emotional lability. When I was a child I had a violently explosive personality, I had an extremely weak temper. I gave a lot of black eyes and broke a lot of eye glasses. Thank goodness that changed when I reached 4th grade, now I'm much the opposite.

I don't know, it's hard to categorize nuerological problems because of the huge complexity of the brain relative to the rest of the body. Which is what the language and theory of modern medicine has been constructed to address.

Biofeedback therapy has been used to treat ADD with good results also. But I think access to this type of treatment is rather limited.

Offline texasmom

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2008, 11:48:39 AM »
Good info at the Austism Society of America site:
http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageNavigator/about_whatis_asperger
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Offline Suave

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2008, 12:01:50 PM »
This video helped me understand AS much better. I think you're right about Einstein having AS, mainly because of his intense passion in a narrow field of study all his life. ADDers will exhibit this trait also, but the cheif difference is that they will lose interest and move on to another obsession. It was ignorant of me to relate ADD equatively to AS and I appologize if I offended. But I do see a lot of paralels.

Returning to my question about childhood verbal tics; anybody else experience this?

Here is the video that I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAfWfsop1e0

Offline texasmom

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Re: ADHD question.
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2008, 01:30:40 PM »
Returning to my question about childhood verbal tics; anybody else experience this?
Are you talking about the repeating?  My son often repeats his own comments, or the comments of others (repeats them in a whisper, always followed by a sort-of-chuckle-snort).  I don't know why he does it. He doesn't seem to wonder about it either. Usually we just ignore it, unless it's after he hears me cuss while on AH & toss my headset down... then I tell him not to repeat it. :)
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