Obama's Pastor "disappeared" from website.

[Arlo]

i have thought that for a long time.  

Between alternating asking me to dummy down my arguments to your level and complaining that I oversimplified my response and wasn't participating fairly, I can see that, john. Path of least resistance for the simple-minded. Good to see you attracted to this flame.

[Arlo]

However, I commented to say that I don't buy his explanation of his close association with that church and pastor.  I bet that middle America doesn't either. 

What's left of it, eh?

Not much of a rebuttal. And another wager is casually made.

[Gunthr]

what's left of it,Arlo?  The same part that Obama is trying to woo...

further, I did not rebut anything, but only meant to clarify.  I understand that we disagree - that's fine.

[Arlo]

further, I did not rebut anything, but only meant to clarify.  I understand that we disagree - that's fine.

But that's my contention. The argument that Obama's a racist and a danger suddenly becomes one of clarifying and reclarifying (repeating) the same initial suspicians, accusations and correlations without offering anything, in the end, but feelings over what the politically motivated group that's gotten behind this belief feels. If asked to provide the hard copy, word for word, that proves the accusation for mutual assessment over what's really meat and potatoes versus what's just a sprig of parsley that smells like real food ... then suddenly the challenger "isn't worth taking seriously." Sure it's fine we disagree. I never expect to agree with anyone on anything all the time. But my take on what is or isn't worth taking seriously is related directly to how well one can present their argument when pressed for more than they had planned to present in the first place. That's a constant about me that's apparently driven more than one fellow AHer over the edge, at times. Glad to see you more resistant, additional concrete added to your argument or not. 

[AKIron]

You guys should understand that the ones that won't let Obama off the hook for being a member of a racist church for 20 years aren't likely to vote for him regardless. The focus is to reveal his unseemly side to those fence sitters who might be inclined to vote for him. Since when have politics been fair? 

[Arlo]

You guys should understand that the ones that won't let Obama off the hook for being a member of a racist church for 20 years aren't likely to vote for him regardless. The focus is "to reveal his unseemly side to those fence sitters who might be inclined to vote for him." Since when have politics been fair? 

Oh hell, Iron, interesting take and phraseology there but everyone knows what mud is, what it's designed to do and what it looks like when slung. What some seem at a loss for is providing anything other than the same tired mud when someone doesn't fall for it being sprayed,  prayed over then rinsing and repeating the first forty-eight times and *still* insists a better argument be made if you want to sway their vote to "the better man." Mud flingers are gonna find it a harder tactic than before. People still remember what they ended up with last time from falling for "swift-boating."

[AKIron]

Pointing out the truth that's already exposed isn't necessarily slinging mud. If some are making false or misleading statements about what's plain for all to see that might be sligning mud but Reverend Wright has slung enough mud that we need only sit back and look.

<edit>

You just can't undo 20 years with one speech.

[Arlo]

Pointing out the truth that's already exposed isn't necessarily slinging mud. If some are making false or misleading statements about what's plain for all to see that might be sligning mud but Reverend Wright has slung enough mud that we need only sit back and look.

You've *still* yet to really establish any undoing needs doing.

I'll be sure not to cast my vote for Rev Wright. Mission accomplished. Everything else you got seems more "truthiness" than "truth."  

[AKIron]

You vote for whoever you like Arlo. Bill Clinton lead the way to ensure double standards or no standards became acceptable. Perhaps if Obama is elected racism will become acceptable too.

[trax1]

The thing about this whole situation is that Obama has tried to say that he had no idea Rev. Wright had these kinds of feelings or beliefs, which I find hard to believe since he's been a member of his church for over 20 years.  Rev. Wright didn't just start having these kinds of beliefs recently, he's had them for a long time, he's been friends with Louis Farrakhan for a long time and we know what he's beliefs are.  Obama wasn't just a member of this guys church, he was also friends with the Rev., he spent alot of time with him one on one, and he's gonna try to make us believe that he never knew that Rev. Wright had these thoughts & feelings, I just find that extremely hard to swallow. 

[Arlo]

You vote for whoever you like Arlo. Bill Clinton lead the way to ensure double standards or no standards became acceptable. Perhaps if Obama is elected racism will become acceptable too.

Of course I will.

Not the first time what you wrote looks like a line that would fit perfectly into the book "1984." And that's one of the reasons you'll always have a hard time getting me to believe what you want to (and really want me to).

HWOWY? (How would Orwell write you?):

Pride in self = racial hatred of others

We are to be held responsible for the indiscretions of anyone associated to us

What was acceptable before then unacceptable later will be acceptable again

But only because we elected what was once unacceptable

Blame the victim, especially if they weren't as weak as we initially thought

Any tactic in politics that gets your candidate elected is good for the people

TRUTHY ... if you don't accept it then you're just lying to yourself, so there!

[Arlo]

The thing about this whole situation is that Obama has tried to say that he had no idea Rev. Wright had these kinds of feelings or beliefs, which I find hard to believe since he's been a member of his church for over 20 years.  Rev. Wright didn't just start having these kinds of beliefs recently, he's had them for a long time, he's been friends with Louis Farrakhan for a long time and we know what he's beliefs are.  Obama wasn't just a member of this guys church, he was also friends with the Rev., he spent alot of time with him one on one, and he's gonna try to make us believe that he never knew that Rev. Wright had these thoughts & feelings, I just find that extremely hard to swallow. 

Actually what you and others here seem to try to boil this down to is that you fear Obama will hurt white people if elected president because you've found a way to rationalize that he's the racist and not those trying to actually get away with playing the race card against him. I find that a ballsy move but not a particularly compelling one.

[AKIron]

Actually what you and others here seem to try to boil this down to is that you fear Obama will hurt white people if elected president because you've found a way to rationalize that he's the racist and not those trying to actually get away with playing the race card against him. I find that a ballsy move but not a particularly compelling one.

You must be sitting down 'cause I know you'd be flat on your face otherwise with that much spin. I guess what you're saying is that only white people can be racist? It's certainly beeen said before, maybe by Wright's buddy Farrakahn.

[Toad]

Lol, now there's some spin for you.

Obama never heard Wright utter an anti-American or racist remark despite listening to him for 20 years from the pulpit?

Worth repeating:

Toad on March 15, 2008, 04:19:34 AM

Once again we are asked to suspend our disbelief, discard our common sense and ignore the man behind the curtain.

Is there anyone stupid enough to believe that statement? Of course there is! MILLIONS of them in fact.

We get the government we deserve.

If anything, I think the fear is that the great hope for change we can believe in is just another lying politician that hangs out with a really beaut of a pastor.

As someone mentioned, can you imagine the uproar if McCain's pastor of 20 years spewed such Wrighttripe about blacks? You have to laugh at politics in this country.

I'm still writing in Paul.

[BTW]

I don't think it was a great speech. It pretty much avoided the question as to why such a hateful pastor compels him to go to that church and bring his children to that church. Again, the views being expressed in those hateful sound bytes are usual and welcome in that church. The reaction of the crowd shows this. They literally embrace the hate. Yet Mr. Obama chooses this church to bring his children to.

I don't buy the lovely old grandfatherly pastor who preaches hate now and then. There are lovely grandfatherly pastors that never preach hate.
Why wasn't Obama attracted to those?

The reason is simple. Wright headed the largest church in Chicago. Opra went to that church. It was politically expedient for Obama to go to that church. Obama  put up with hate directed at white America because it was politically expedient to do so. When Wright became a liability, Obama was in the process of throwing him under a bus when he found his African-American base was getting angry at him for doing so. Of course he can't denounce him.

There's no great speech here. There is no accountability, but rationalizations. He was tying up a few loose ends. He couldn't leave that claim that he was never in the pew when the hatred was rolling out of Wrights mouth. That claim would have blown up in his face in the future. Someone would be able to prove he was.

I don't see a great speech. I see diversion. Change the subject. The subject wasn't hatred in black churches or racism. It was why was Obama would choose such a church. Its why Obama would make this person preaching hate, part of his campaign.

Isn't it wonderful that he earns the right to lecture The United States on race by using terrible judgement and belonging to a bigoted church.
Obama did nothing but divert the subject from his bad choice of company that is becoming a pattern.

It wasn't a great speech. It was a shell game.