The people's republic of california expands the bans on lead projectiles

[Toad]

I'm surprised you would make that statement.  That's pure speculation. 

Here's some speculation for you: the only reason condors die from lead poisoning is because they get lead in their systems from ingesting lead bullets and shot.

No leaded gas? How do you feel about general aviation? 100LL has 3-4 times much lead as the old 87 leaded avgas. That lead gets spewed right into the air the condors breathe while flying around.

How much lead is in the dirt that blows across and sticks to carrion?

I stick to what I said. Lead from ammunition is miniscule when compared to naturally occuring lead in the environment. Then there's the other unnatural lead, like from 100LL.

[Toad]

Hevishot is significantly more expensive than lead shot. Significantly.

Prices from Cabela's:

Hevishot turkey loads, 12 ga  #5  $20.99 for five rounds. Call it ~$4 per shot with tax.

Federal 12 ga #5 copperplated lead $13.99 for ten rounds. Call it $1.50 per shot with tax.

[DieAz]

  There may be other compounds that can substitute lead but I have not heard of any that are as good or superior to lead.

Silver and Gold, both are vastly superior to lead in every way. 

[Jackal1]

............but if it saves one Condor. 

[ChickenHawk]

Can you supply something to explain this statement?
"We all know there has been plenty of ammunition spent in the condor range.  If you have any documented evidence of other significant sources of lead, I'm all ears."

What is "plenty of ammunition"? What is the range of the condor?

California Condor - BirdLife Species Factsheet

The regular movements of the Arizona birds are confined to Coconnino County (Arizona) and Kane County (Utah), although a handful of individuals have wandered north to Flaming Gorge (Wyoming) and localities in Colorado before returning to the Grand Canyon area. The California birds occur regularly in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Ventura, Kern, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterrey, San Benito, and probably Santa Cruz. The Baja California birds are still confined to the Sierra de San Pedro Martir

And hunting of course is alive and well in these areas too.

The Arizona Game and Fish Department is now distributing safer lead-substitute bullets free of charge to hunters within the foraging range of the condors, and similar programs are being initiated in California

[Toad]

There ya go... I have no problem with the State of California distributing free lead-free ammunition to all hunters. That way EVERYBODY in CA can do their bit to save the condors.

Heck, it's just a tiny little dollop of taxpayer money.

Great solution!

[Maverick]

I'm still waiting for you to explain the "plenty of ammunition" comment.

Oh and BTW here is the info from your source as to the California birds.

"The California birds occur regularly in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Ventura, Kern, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterrey, San Benito, and probably Santa Cruz."

Those locations are hardly what I would consider prime hunting habitat for hunters. While there is some shooting going on in LA I doubt the condors are eating much carrion from gang bangers.

[Jackal1]

Those locations are hardly what I would consider prime hunting habitat for hunters. While there is some shooting going on in LA I doubt the condors are eating much carrion from gang bangers.

If they are it is no wonder they are kicking the bucket.

[storch]

so the ban is not affecting california shooters all that much?

[ChickenHawk]

Here's some speculation for you: the only reason condors die from lead poisoning is because they get lead in their systems from ingesting lead bullets and shot.

No leaded gas? How do you feel about general aviation? 100LL has 3-4 times much lead as the old 87 leaded avgas. That lead gets spewed right into the air the condors breathe while flying around.

How much lead is in the dirt that blows across and sticks to carrion?

I stick to what I said. Lead from ammunition is miniscule when compared to naturally occuring lead in the environment. Then there's the other unnatural lead, like from 100LL.

If it was lead from avgas I would think the distribution would be pretty constant over the entire continent and ALL the condors would be affected with the same amount, not just a few dying with high levels of lead.

While I disagree with your reasoning, I agree that there is no irrefutable proof.  More research needs to be done IMO.  The best research would be to feed a few captive birds carrion shot with lead bullets and see how they fair.  This of course will never happen given the small number of birds left.  So I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens now that Cali has passed the law.

BTW, I am against taxpayers paying the bill on lead free ammo.  If I was Arnie, I would demand irrefutable proof and then I would expect the ammunition makers to voluntarily make the change over time.  No laws or taxpayer money needed.

[ChickenHawk]

I'm still waiting for you to explain the "plenty of ammunition" comment.

Oh and BTW here is the info from your source as to the California birds.

"The California birds occur regularly in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Ventura, Kern, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterrey, San Benito, and probably Santa Cruz."

Those locations are hardly what I would consider prime hunting habitat for hunters. While there is some shooting going on in LA I doubt the condors are eating much carrion from gang bangers.

Ok Mav.  When I'm out shooting, I expend plenty of ammunition.  Since I don't live in California and have not personally seen anyone expending plenty of ammunition there, I hereby withdraw my previous use of the word "plenty".

And those locations are counties.  The condors tend to stay away from cities.

[midnight Target]

I'm still waiting for you to explain the "plenty of ammunition" comment.

Oh and BTW here is the info from your source as to the California birds.

"The California birds occur regularly in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Ventura, Kern, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterrey, San Benito, and probably Santa Cruz."

Those locations are hardly what I would consider prime hunting habitat for hunters. While there is some shooting going on in LA I doubt the condors are eating much carrion from gang bangers.

Those are Counties Mav, and if you were to pull out your... atlas... you'd see that there are millions of acres of wilderness in those counties.

[Maverick]

I am aware that there are counties there. I am also aware that hunting is still quite restricted, especially in LA area as there is a lot of population in those counties. I've been in the area before.

I'm also aware that hunters take their game and don't leave it for scavengers. I'm also aware that there is not a significant amount of lead being spewed from the barrel of guns, particularly from center fire rifles and handguns that is going to find it's way into a Condor. Particularly given the few numbers of the birds.

I did not see anything in the study that indicated other sources of lead and other toxins were eliminated to narrow it down to hunters.

It's more like blaming spilled table salt in a picnic area for the death of freshwater plants in a salt water environment statewide.

[Toad]

If it was lead from avgas I would think the distribution would be pretty constant over the entire continent and ALL the condors would be affected with the same amount, not just a few dying with high levels of lead.

Oh, are there condors all over the continent? We don't see too many out here in Kansas. Or is your point that GA aircraft fly equally in all parts of California and that the barren wastelands that the condors frequent gets just as much GA traffic as the LA basin?

BTW, I am against taxpayers paying the bill on lead free ammo.  If I was Arnie, I would demand irrefutable proof and then I would expect the ammunition makers to voluntarily make the change over time.  No laws or taxpayer money needed.

Of course you are! You're apparently one of those that only wants to spend other people's money. Aren't the condors so important to ALL Californians? Don't ALL Californians want condors to prosper? So since you agree there's no proof concering lead ammo, isn't only fair that ALL Californians chip in for the cost of this experiment? Why should hunters fund the entire experiment when it may turn out that lead bullets have little to do with it?

[ChickenHawk]

Ok dude, you totally lost me there.