General Gun Discussion

[lazs2]

swoop and  curval.. I do get your point..  you are saying that no guns at all.. or very little.. no gun problem or.. very little.

Where your reasoning all goes wrong is when you first, take a look at the make up of the country in question.. just as no gun law has ever reduced crime here.. no gun law in your country has every decreased it there.. your homicide rate was the same before you made all your gun laws.. in both your countries the laws were not made because of a mounting crime wave of gun murders.. they were driven by fear and panic over one or two incidents used by the government to impose these laws..  some slaughter in england and a government hack killed on curvals playland.   The laws didn't reduce homicides.. which were never anything to get all shook up about in the first place.. you gave up your rights for nothing.

Second.. dead is dead..  your homicide rate didn't change..  ours hasn't either except..  with some of our laws on guns getting more lax.. we have seen a lowering of our homicide rate.

last.. an interesting stat...  while your burglary rate is twice as high as ours..  as is a lot of your other crime that could be prevented by armed citizens...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

Your manslaughter rate is off the chart in such places as oz and norway where there is gun control.. ours doesn't even show on the top 25   to me.. dead is dead..  shot or the victim of manslaughter.. what is the difference.

also..if you are white in America vs white in your country..  you are less prone to die of some misadventure.. you may be more likely to be shot here but.. less likely to die of an "accident"

Here.. the culture is vibrant and multicultural.. that is why so many of you from other countries come here to live and... so few of us go to yours to live...

There is a price for vibrant multiculturalism and an economy of opportunity... and of course... the drug war...  These things make some places for some of the population segments.. very dangerous.. it spills over a tad to the majority culture.. but.. the majority culture in America uses guns 1-3 million times a year to stop bad things happening to us.

They are more useful here than smoking laws.. more life saving than helmet laws.. save more lives than speed limits or seat belt laws... they are making us safe from the ones who are lawless and greedy..

Plus.. we don't trust our government.. and.. we simply can't and won't hide under our bed while we are being burglarized like you folk.

lazs

[Swoop]

re: British law.    I agree with you.  2 poxy incidents by maniacs and liberals countrywide scream for no guns.  gee thanks.  Read any British political blog you like and you'll see that the majority agree with you. 

I want a gat!   I think I may have mentioned this before......


re: Bermudian law.  Can't comment, don't know anything about the incident mentioned.

However, I also think Toad has made an excellent point about the culture differences.

[wrag]

I find this article to be VERY interesting!

_free_zone?page=full&comments=true" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/MikeSAdams/2008/05/05/caution!_you_are_about_to_enter_a_gun _free_zone?page=full&comments=true

[wrag]

WELL hmmmm

Seems cameras aren't doin it either?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/may/06/ukcrime1

[BBBB]

I disagree with you about the reliability of semi-autos Laz. I have a Glock 30 that I bought in 2000, it has had over 7,000 rounds though it of all types of .45 ammo and it has yet to have a failure to feed, failure to extract or failure to fire. It goes boom every time. I have left it loaded for over a year and never had a problem.

 The firearms and magazines that are being produced today are very reliable. Certain brands of firearms have earned the reputation of having outstanding reliability. Glock and Sig Sauer are two that come mind. I estimate that those two brands of firearms make up somewhere around the 70% of firearms carried by law enforcement officers in the United States. That says a lot about those types of firearms.

 I love my wheel gun. I have my model 67 being customized as we speak (action and trigger work). However on the streets of today a wheel gun just will not cut it. When bad guys are packing AK47s, SKS's and every other bottom shelf firearm they can get their hand on, a six shot .357 just is not going to be equal.

 Now I am all for training. I believe there is no better tool to persons survival in a shooting than solid training. However, there comes a point were technology comes into play. When combat evolves. The days of wheel guns running the show are over. They now have to take a back seat to semi-autos. As semi-autos have proven themselves reliable enough for front line service.

 This could not have been said twenty years ago. It can be said today. Twenty years ago we would not be having the conversation, but if we were I would be in full agreement with you. Today sitting here now, I can not. Even so to each is his own and my own comes in the form of a twelve round Sig P229.

[lazs2]

BBBB....Just out of curiosity.... 

How is your 12 round sig gonna be any better against a bad guy with an AK 47 that is 75 yards away and using a car door or newspaper stand for cover than my 6 shot 44 mag revolver?

You did say you needed a semi auto pistol of high capacity because the bad guys had AK 47's right?   

How is it gonna do any better against say.. a  level one vest? 

How do you forsee.. what situation.. will it be a big advantage to you?   I am not talking being in a military conflict or even being a cop.. although.. it is hard for me to imagine where that 45 is gonna do better than 6 shots from a 44 or maybe 7 or eight from a .357 revolver.

But.. as you say.. it is really about what you are comfortable with and..  as anyone will tell you..  semi autos can kick butt at shooting at plates and such.

I like my 45 Kimber.. I trust it.  to an extent.  I trust my revolvers more but.. the kimber aint half bad..

Now, if we are talking about leagues of the walking dead.. now.. I might want something with a lot of capacity that loads quick and don't kick much.  even a nine will pop a zombie skull.

lazs

[Dago]

BBBB....Just out of curiosity.... 

How is your 12 round sig gonna be any better against a bad guy with an AK 47 that is 75 yards away and using a car door or newspaper stand for cover than my 6 shot 44 mag revolver?

You did say you needed a semi auto pistol of high capacity because the bad guys had AK 47's right?   

How is it gonna do any better against say.. a  level one vest? 

How do you forsee.. what situation.. will it be a big advantage to you?   I am not talking being in a military conflict or even being a cop.. although.. it is hard for me to imagine where that 45 is gonna do better than 6 shots from a 44 or maybe 7 or eight from a .357 revolver.

But.. as you say.. it is really about what you are comfortable with and..  as anyone will tell you..  semi autos can kick butt at shooting at plates and such.

I like my 45 Kimber.. I trust it.  to an extent.  I trust my revolvers more but.. the kimber aint half bad..

Now, if we are talking about leagues of the walking dead.. now.. I might want something with a lot of capacity that loads quick and don't kick much.  even a nine will pop a zombie skull.

lazs

You will be scared, and probably already dead from the AK, but if you stay alive long enough, your hands will be shaking, your mouth will go dry, and you will not be able to hit a target at 75 yards due to the adrenalin pounding through your veins while trying to defend yourself with a revolver.  At 75 yards, any handgun is pretty close to useless in a gun fight, you know, the kind where someone is actually shooting back at you, not a defenseless piece of paper hanging still from a clip.

IF, and I say if, you manage to fire off your six rounds, no doubt the opponent will be still up and hammering away at you.  At that point, you will find your hands shaking so bad you will find it almost impossible to reload the revolver as it is a slower and clumsy weapon to reload. 

The advantage the semi-auto would have here would be the ability to continue to shoot past the six round limit of the revolver, and quickly reload.  You would then possibly have a chance to keep the bad guys head down some while waiting for someone smart enough to carry a rifle to come along and save you. 

If you really love the .44, buy a Desert Eagle.  It's a fun gun to shoot.

[bong]

Just call the cops, thats their job to prevent crime, FYI there are millions and millions of guns in the US, hundreds of thousands if not millions of m-16 type aks uzis etc... all added up. America is a fortress 1/4 people own a gun and the average gun owner owns several. Yet somehow each day the guns dont gain intelligence and go off and bang bang.

[wrag]

Swoop, I think the point is as I just posted.

It's not the laws, it's the society that determines the amount of gun crime.

To a certain extent, Bermuda is a Disneyland. I think that explains a lot about their level of crime in toto.

It would SEEM that someone agreed with you LONG before you were born.....

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

[lazs2]

dago.. well.. I guess you just brought up another question..   if you are so scared that you can't even function and handguns are just a waste of time in a gun fight.. 

Then what difference does it make which kind you have?     If you are shaking like a leaf.. what difference if you have more rounds to spray around other than to increase the possibility of injuring bystanders?

Speedloaders for revolvers are pretty good these days to BTW.   they even make em for the 7 and 8 shot .357 revolvers..

I don't recall the sensations you talk about when I got shot at but. maybe I hadn't read enough yet.

The advantage I see for a revolver is a situation where someone is doing random killing and you have taken cover.  he may have some kind of body armor or light cover.. I see taking the shot while he is shooting in another direction.

I don't think the cops were too impressed with the semi autos that they were spraying at the LA bank robbers.   I would rather have had an old ruger single action revolver in 44 mag.

Now maybe you can tell me a situation where a semi auto will save the day for a civilian over a revolver.  Missed the first six shots at 7 yards????  the guy is just angry and keeps coming after six seven or eight shots shots?     7 guys attack at once at close range?

You are attacked by dinner plates?

What situation?   Is a 1911 worthless because it only holds 8 rounds like a lot of .357 revolvers?

lazs

[SteveBailey]

I don't recall the sensations you talk about when I got shot at but. maybe I hadn't read enough yet.


lazs

        Sorry that's just  funny to me.  Dago, how many times exactly have you been shot at?

[Jackal1]

You will be scared, and probably already dead from the AK, but if you stay alive long enough, your hands will be shaking, your mouth will go dry, and you will not be able to hit a target at 75 yards due to the adrenalin pounding through your veins while trying to defend yourself with a revolver. 

You don`t have time to register all of that.
You more than likely will get tunnel vision though and become more focused than you have ever been in your life......................... ......also time seems to stand still.

[Dago]

       Sorry that's just  funny to me.  Dago, how many times exactly have you been shot at?

Want a laugh, consider that lazs previously told me he hasn't been shot at and has never been in a gunfight.

I never have been shot at, never pretended I did.  I do know I have read about people (cops, soldiers) reactions to being shot at, especially for the first time, and I can't recall any of them describing themselves as cool, calm and doing the Dirty Harry imitation that lazs seems confident he would portray.

That is the difference between us, I don't watch a movie and pretend I would be a calm badass, grimacing and growling "go ahead, make my day".

Now Steve, stop acting like a twerp with your  "yeah yeah, what he said" juvenile crap.

[Hornet33]

You don`t have time to register all of that.
You more than likely will get tunnel vision though and become more focused than you have ever been in your life......................... ......also time seems to stand still.

That's what I recall from the one time we got shot at with small arms during Desert Storm. We had a couple dozen AK's firing at us. Had a round come through the windshield of my HEMTT and miss my left knee by about 2-3 inches. I was standing on the passenger seat manning my M-60 on the roof mount. The fight only lasted a couple of minutes but it felt like hours. It seemed like I could almost see the rounds going downrange from my weapon as I fired.

I didn't start shaking until after it was over. Pissed my pants sometime during the fight and didn't even know it. I was too focused on engaging targets. I was a little embarassed about it until I saw a couple of the other guys in the same situation. We all just kinda laughed at each other, changed drawers and continued the mission.

Point is if your properly trained and prepared, mentally and physically, when the crap hits the fan, you just do what has to be done. You don't get scared until later.

[Dago]

That's what I recall from the one time we got shot at with small arms during Desert Storm. We had a couple dozen AK's firing at us. Had a round come through the windshield of my HEMTT and miss my left knee by about 2-3 inches. I was standing on the passenger seat manning my M-60 on the roof mount. The fight only lasted a couple of minutes but it felt like hours. It seemed like I could almost see the rounds going downrange from my weapon as I fired.

I didn't start shaking until after it was over. Pissed my pants sometime during the fight and didn't even know it. I was too focused on engaging targets. I was a little embarassed about it until I saw a couple of the other guys in the same situation. We all just kinda laughed at each other, changed drawers and continued the mission.

Point is if your properly trained and prepared, mentally and physically, when the crap hits the fan, you just do what has to be done. You don't get scared until later.

And you have hit the nail on the head, you were trained, you were prepared and ready.  Beyond the professional military, most will never get close to that state.  Ever see the car camera footage of cops when someone shot at them from?  Most often they shoot like wild emptying their guns from close range and most of the rounds, (if not all) miss.  These are guys who train and qualify with the weapon they carry, and go into situations knowing this could happen, and they return "panic fire".